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Theory, glorious theory!

John Henry's "brother" tried to kill him and also wants Savannah dead. Those are two good reasons for John Henry to want to stop him. So why jump to the future to destroy the AI that's after him and Savannah in the present? Well, I don't think he did. I think John Henry is still in 2009 and after finding out Kaliba's location from the water cooler terminator's chip, he went after him.

Weaver seemed certain he'd jumped to the future, so I'll assume John Henry fooled her by making it look like he'd jumped. He could've messed with the display screen or maybe even sent an empty time bubble ahead to make it more convincing. She had told John Henry that Savannah's survival depended on his but his survival didn't depend on hers. That implies that Weaver was really only concerned about protecting John Henry and I think we can be sure John Henry would want to try to protect Savannah.

If Weaver knew he'd gone off to confront his brother, she'd probably find him and bring him back. She'd already asked Murch about packing everything up, so John Henry knew she was prepared to move him to keep him safe (A "mother" moving her "son" to keep him safe seems rather familiar, doesn't it?). But he didn't want to run away, didn't want to hide and didn't want to leave Savannah at risk. So even though he wasn't yet prepared to fight and maybe didn't know what kind of situation he'd be heading into, John Henry faked-out Weaver. I believe he walked out of Zeira Corp to go have a "computer vs computer" showdown with his Kaliba brother — who meant him harm and meant Savannah harm.



If it doesn't fit, you must... use a different chip

Cameron's chip would not have fit John Henry's port. She's a different model and uses a different size/shape chip than Cromartie (now John Henry) did. I think we all just sort of rolled our eyes at that and figured we had to accept that he made it work somehow. But maybe he didn't. I figure we've got two other chip possibilities: water cooler terminator's and Vick's. We really have no idea what happened to either one. Water cooler terminator's chip was damaged, so that seems unlikely. I'm not counting it out, though. John Henry might have some mad chip repair skillz! Of course, if his chip skills were that good, he could probably make Cam's chip work for him and I don't like that idea.

Last we saw Vick's chip, it was working fine. I can't imagine John would've given it back to Cameron after he mucked around with it, but she could've pocketed it again at some point. I certainly don't ever recall seeing it destroyed. Cameron sure seemed intrigued with Vick's chip when she first pulled it. Maybe she actually started plotting this back then? Or maybe as far back as the "will you join us?" circa 2027. Either way, she held onto that chip, hid that chip and never gave a valid explanation as to why (if it was just to get info, then why keep it a secret?).

If John Henry didn't jump to the future, then neither did Cameron's chip. And if he didn't even use her chip, it's still somewhere in that room. I'm going to say it's in her pocket (that she told JH to put it there). Remember that super cute greeting between Cameron and John Henry? I'm thinking they had some friendly chit-chat and compared notes... about John, about Savannah, about Sarah, Weaver and Kaliba. And they devised a plot. But why would Cameron want John to jump ahead?



"I'll stop it."

You may recall that I was not so fond of Born to Run. I could not (and still don't) accept Sarah's lack of fight over John jumping away. So I've had to grab onto the notion that she figured he could be free — his fate could be changed — if she let him go and she stopped j-day. He'd land in a normal world and finally be able to live a normal life. In short, he'd be happy... and safe. Since Sarah and Cameron had a common purpose (protect John), I see no reason why Cameron couldn't have come to the same conclusion — that the best way to keep John safe was to send him ahead with the belief that he'd be safe when he arrived.

It seems to me that Cameron's manipulations were intended to get John emotionally attached to her and to convince Sarah that John was better off without her (Sarah). And I think she succeeded on both counts. But her mission is only partially completed. With John out of the way, she and Sarah ("you're the best fighter... the best") can get down to business stopping Kaliba, preventing j-day and ensuring John's safety.



You all put back together, Tin man?

Things would be crazy right after the time bubble left. The whole freaking building may be about to come down on them and police and the fire department are no doubt on their way. Sarah needs to get the hell out of there. That fuckhead Ellison would probably be sensible and try to rush her out. But I'm thinking that after a moment of being stunned, Sarah would come to her senses, grab the Turk and also want to take Cameron's body (can't leave an endo behind to be found). That's when she'll find Cameron's chip. Since it's her only hope for finding out what the hell is going on, she'll put it back in (also Cam walking herself out is a hell of a lot easier than having to be carried).



The metal, the merrier!

John Connor took off to the future with Weaver and John Henry stayed in the present where Sarah is. Allison is with John in the future; Cameron is with John Henry in the past. John is going to hang with the humans and maybe the lessons his mom taught him will start to sink in (people matter, machines don't feel things and don't know love). Meanwhile, Sarah is going to find herself working closely with two machines (Cameron and John Henry) which will maybe help her start to understand her son a little better.

Isn't it interesting that John's new name was going to be Henry?



Comments

( 35 comments — Add a comment )
bobmacpharson
Jan. 18th, 2010 12:35 pm (UTC)
Um, not to rain on your parade, but Dekker's quote, which you listed on this site a few months ago was that:

"• John will find John Henry with Cameron in his chip and through some complicated process, Cameron is remade."
castellan_craft
Jan. 18th, 2010 04:07 pm (UTC)
While I'm also not on board with all of Roxy's theories, it is worth noting that a chip doesn't need to go into the future through a bubble to get found: it can go "the long way." She was still functional in BtR if not at her peak, so "remade" could refer to a restoration.
(no subject) - bobmacpharson - Jan. 18th, 2010 04:21 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - roxybisquaint - Jan. 18th, 2010 07:52 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - castellan_craft - Jan. 18th, 2010 08:47 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - roxybisquaint - Jan. 20th, 2010 05:34 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - cj2017 - Jan. 19th, 2010 09:42 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - roxybisquaint - Jan. 20th, 2010 06:10 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - cj2017 - Jan. 20th, 2010 11:15 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - roxybisquaint - Jan. 20th, 2010 08:35 pm (UTC) - Expand
roxybisquaint
Jan. 18th, 2010 07:11 pm (UTC)
He also said that, of Sarah, Cameron and Riley, "one dies, one leaves, one betrays" by the end of season 2. Riley died, obviousy, and depending on how you view Cam's actions, she could've left or betrayed. But Sarah did none of those things. So Thomas isn't always right in his interpretations.
bobmacpharson
Jan. 18th, 2010 12:39 pm (UTC)
(and for the record, I'm perfectly willing to accept "John Henry somehow made it work" to be a legitimate solution. Especially consider that he was in the process of figuring out how to hack the data on the burnt chip from water cooler guy. He'd already have the interface to try and load/download data from it, so she could have been copied there.)

In fact, assuming the original quote was literally accurate as opposed to approximately transcribed from Dekker's rantings, it's not Cameron's chip, it's Cameron IN John Henry's chip.
bobmacpharson
Jan. 18th, 2010 12:43 pm (UTC)
Although I just realized that they had just made a pointed effort to explain that Terminator personalities are contingent on software AND hardware, so putting Cameron in a burnt chip would be really significant (also a major part of her personality is that her chip is damaged in a particular way). Dunno how they'd play that out.

Finally, I am almost positive that Weaver knew exactly what was happening, whatever it was, and was just saying what needed to be said to get John into the future as part of the plan. And if she WAS telling the truth we could interpret "he" (John Henry) to mean the body specifically.
(no subject) - roxybisquaint - Jan. 18th, 2010 07:21 pm (UTC) - Expand
castellan_craft
Jan. 18th, 2010 04:15 pm (UTC)
If it's both a hardware and software matter as I say, putting Cameron in a new body entirely would also be a significant change.

The biggest thing I have against the theory of Cameron in John Henry's head is simply... why? There's really no point to it. Her body as I noted above was still functional, and she was making a big point of teaching John repair. The only thing that seems dramatic enough to get her to essentially give up who she is, practically say her goodbye to John in the motel, etc., would be thinking she's going to "die" to give John Henry the ability to escape. Whether or not she DOES die is the question. I've claimed in the past that Cameron is actually loaded on the Turk and will get loaded back onto her chip at some point in the future.

Whatever crazy fan theories there are floating around... we'll never know how off base we are till Friedman opens up. We don't know specifics, but we know Josh Friedman said Dekker was "extrapolating a lot." LOL

Also, Roxy? Glad to see my suggestion that stealing Vick's chip was a part of the plan that early on stuck with you, but.... I coulda sworn it was destroyed. Now you're gonna make me watch season 1 again!
(no subject) - roxybisquaint - Jan. 18th, 2010 07:37 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - castellan_craft - Jan. 18th, 2010 09:06 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - roxybisquaint - Jan. 20th, 2010 07:01 pm (UTC) - Expand
intrepid01
Jan. 18th, 2010 11:03 pm (UTC)
Phew! It might have been easer to write a fanfic!

One thing I found slightly, annoying? Was if the time-machine was activated before by John Henry, wouldn't there be evidence of this.
If what doesn't go through gets atomised, then there should have been a nice little crater where John Henry's table and chair was.
roxybisquaint
Jan. 20th, 2010 08:01 am (UTC)
Hee. Maybe I will write a post-BTR continuation fanfic at some point. For now, I'm still trying to figure it all out ;)

Yeah that annoyed me too and I got into some discussions about it with people when I posted about Born to Run (if you're interested, it's the "Ring of Fire" section and also discussion in the comments). I think there should've been some sort of depression, damage to the room — something, especially considering the entire bank got destroyed after they jumped in the pilot. But the counter argument that the bank vault didn't blow up because of the time bubble, it blew because it was rigged with explosives. Since we've never actually seen a time bubble leave, I think that argument is plausible, even if harder to believe.
tackdriver56
Jan. 19th, 2010 03:19 am (UTC)
Unfoldings
Vic's chip was never seen again after the house burned in What He Beheld, or Samson and Delihlah.

I'm pretty sure we were led to believe that Cameron was stashing all of the parts she salvaged from her 'kills', in the box in the garage. Sarah burned them.

All of the Skynet/Kaliba terminator chips from Rosie the Contortionist onward were rigged with phosphorus to burn on contact with air, as soon as the access cover seal was broken. That should include Water Boy.
This is easy enough to defeat, using a glove-box and a bottle of Helium or Argon (from a welding supply shop).
The problem would be getting the T to hold still long enough.

I *like* the idea of Cameron and John Henry sharing a processor. There's a LOT of exposition AND drama to be mined from that circumstance.

I have to differ with the concept of John Henry and / or Sarah making things right in present day: John clearly arrived in a world where Judgement Day had already unfolded. The future of humanity IS in John Connor's hands, and possibly John/Cam Henry's. If JH stayed behind in 2009, he's failed too. He's either dead, or he's laying low, creating infrastructure for the Third Faction. Or he's in the future with John Connor, where parts are more readily available for himself and Cameron.

FWIW, Weaver didn't have much trouble restoring the Cromartie endo or flesh, so Cameron should be similarly repairable, even in 2009.
roxybisquaint
Jan. 20th, 2010 07:46 pm (UTC)
Re: Unfoldings
I'm pretty sure we were led to believe that Cameron was stashing all of the parts she salvaged from her 'kills', in the box in the garage. Sarah burned them.

I think we were probably meant to believe that they destroyed the chip after they'd gotten all the Barbara Chamberlain / ARTE stuff from it and were done with that mission. But since we never actually saw that happen and it was never mentioned, that chip could still be in play. It's not much more ludicrous than Cameron being in John Henry's head on a chip that doesn't fit his port ;)



I *like* the idea of Cameron and John Henry sharing a processor. There's a LOT of exposition AND drama to be mined from that circumstance.

The only thing that appeals to me about that is possibility of seeing John interact with her/him. But after one funny scene, I think I'd be quite done with that.



I have to differ with the concept of John Henry and / or Sarah making things right in present day: John clearly arrived in a world where Judgement Day had already unfolded. The future of humanity IS in John Connor's hands, and possibly John/Cam Henry's. If JH stayed behind in 2009, he's failed too. He's either dead, or he's laying low, creating infrastructure for the Third Faction. Or he's in the future with John Connor, where parts are more readily available for himself and Cameron.

How does John Connor fail is he stays in 2009? The future is only set right now because John DID jump (and that's why I despise BTR). If we don't see two ends of the timeline, then the future isn't set at all and they can continue the work to prevent j-day. The terminator story for me has always been about man's over-reliance on machines — the inadvertent creation of our own destruction. And within that story, the heroes are Sarah and John (and Kyle).

Taking that story and turning it into something where a machine is man's savior (or co-savior) and largely replacing Sarah's and John's importance with Weaver and John Henry is outrageous. As a twisty detour it could be interesting, but not as the final story. Having said that, I don't ever actually want Skynet stopped in present day, nor do I ever want j-day to come. I like the present-day struggle and once either of those things happen, the story ends for me.



FWIW, Weaver didn't have much trouble restoring the Cromartie endo or flesh, so Cameron should be similarly repairable, even in 2009.

Her skin would grow back and she could make repairs. Hell, if she needs coltan to make some parts, they know where to find a whole truckload of it! The eye was the only concern (I'm sure Weaver killed someone to get a new eye for JH), but she could wear an eyepatch or maybe go visit a hospital and grab one from a fresh corpse ;)

Re: Unfoldings - tackdriver56 - Jan. 21st, 2010 03:12 pm (UTC) - Expand
indiefic
Jan. 19th, 2010 02:27 pm (UTC)
I'm with you on Sarah's motivations for letting John jump, for John wanting to Jump and for Cameron manipulating the hell out of everybody and not jumping.

As for John Henry. God, trying to figure out his motivations makes my head hurt. I go back and forth on whether or not the writers and Josh were brilliant and ten steps ahead or if they didn't know what the fuck John Henry's motivations were either and they totally pulled everything out of their collective ass. I really suspect it's the latter.

On a side note, I LOVE how much you love this show. It makes me all warm and fuzzy to know I'm not the only person who thinks about this stuff all the damn time.
cj2017
Jan. 19th, 2010 09:50 pm (UTC)
I go back and forth on whether or not the writers and Josh were brilliant and ten steps ahead or if they didn't know what the fuck John Henry's motivations were either and they totally pulled everything out of their collective ass. I really suspect it's the latter.

I think JH was a work in progress - like so many of the open ends left by the show - and they were probably figuring him out as they went along. The threads for his development were being sewn - his reaction to being switched off (the implication that perhaps this was the point the Turk became "angry and scared"), his discovery of/interest in his brother, the ability to do his own research and finally the suggestion that he acted in league with Cameron to put into play some scheme of his own...

Maybe each season was planned as a significant stage in his development and S3 would've been moody, obnoxious and wilful teen, kicking out against his ersatz mother and generally being rebellious... Think S2 John only with superior body strength ;-)

On a side note, I LOVE how much you love this show. It makes me all warm and fuzzy to know I'm not the only person who thinks about this stuff all the damn time.

Girlie, you are not alone! Maybe we need to establish some kind of support group... do we need an intervention?! Actually, sod that, I like thinking about this stuff all the time.
(no subject) - indiefic - Jan. 20th, 2010 01:24 am (UTC) - Expand
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roxybisquaint
Jan. 20th, 2010 08:41 am (UTC)
I feel pretty confident that John Henry's only motivation was to protect Savannah and meet/stop his AI brother. When he said "will you join us?" to Cameron, I think he was merely anticipating what Weaver would've said to cameron had she been there.

All through the finale, John Henry was becoming strangely attuned to Weaver's thoughts. At first he was echoing her. Then he was speaking at the same time as her (and he looked confused about how he was doing it; so did Weaver). So I'd expect the next step to be for him to say what Weaver was going to say before she said it. How? Why? Don't know, but it had something to do with that "tweaking" that happened when Murch changed a wire.

Or maybe I'm over-thinking that and JH simply overheard Weaver giving that message to Ellison to give to Cameron ;)

I definitely think there was some pulling of things out of their asses too. :P


On a side note, I LOVE how much you love this show. It makes me all warm and fuzzy to know I'm not the only person who thinks about this stuff all the damn time.

Dude, you have no idea. This show runs through me like blood ;)

Edited at 2010-01-20 08:45 am (UTC)
the_narration
Jan. 20th, 2010 02:51 am (UTC)
Well, I think I've said to you before that I never thought that the idea of John Henry going to the future made any sense. Kaliba would be far more powerful in the future than he is in the present, so it's the worst possible way to confront it.

It's hard to know if that's part of a plan by the writers, or if it's just sloppy writing as part of an attempt to create a dramatic game-changing cliffhanger. Some series plan their entire run in advance (Noir, GITS:SAC), some wing it from season to season but have such a great knowledge of their own continuity that everything pieces together well enought to keep people from noticing (Farscape, DS9), and some just make shit up as they go (Lost). "Born to Run" never really struck me as being part of a thorough plan.

You're right that Sarah probably wouldn't want to leave Cameron's endoskeleton and the Turk behind... her whole point of going there was to secure or destroy the Turk and an endoskeleton, after all.

Cameron sure seemed intrigued with Vick's chip when she first pulled it. Maybe she actually started plotting this back then? Or maybe as far back as the "will you join us?" circa 2027.
Don't see how she could have. She no way of knowing at that point that Cromartie's endoskeleton would be delivered into Weaver's hands by Ellison, so how could she know that she would need to provide it with a replacement chip?
roxybisquaint
Jan. 20th, 2010 10:24 am (UTC)
I do remember you saying that before - that JH jumping ahead to meet/fight his brother is illogical. And I totally agree (obviously). Since I'm sticking with that idea — that he didn't jump, I can believe they had a plan and it mostly made sense. We just don't have enough pieces.


You're right that Sarah probably wouldn't want to leave Cameron's endoskeleton and the Turk behind... her whole point of going there was to secure or destroy the Turk and an endoskeleton, after all.

Well she didn't know the Turk as there until she got there, but Cromartie's body with a cord coming out of the back it's head was certainly not something to let slide.

Even if Cameron's chip really has left the building in JH's head, leaving an endo around for anyone to find is never a good idea... especially when Ellison knows its location! :P I can't see any reason that she'd hold onto it, though. As soon as she could find some thermite, Cameron's body would be toast.


She no way of knowing at that point that Cromartie's endoskeleton would be delivered into Weaver's hands by Ellison, so how could she know that she would need to provide it with a replacement chip?

Good point and I'm not even sure Cameron knew the liquid metal had jumped to present day. She could have, though, so the background on the theory would be that after the sub incident and Jesse delivered the message, Cameron and the liquid metal somehow met up and ended up working a deal. But the whole thing would be on the liquid metal's terms whose plan required an endo, a chip and an AI and a jump to their past. How they planned to get those things, I have no idea.

It's a thin theory, I know. But I really hate he idea that Cameron is totally gone or that there would be some convoluted way of recreating her in the future. Also I just really like the idea that JH and Cam tricked John and Weaver :D

Edited at 2010-01-20 10:25 am (UTC)
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Roxy Bisquaint

Roxy Bisquaint...

Is self-indulgent. Over thinks everything. Tweets too much. Looks really good in these jeans. Wants to eat butterscotch. Makes herself laugh. Obsesses about aging. Does some crunches. Lives with two ghosts. Procrastinates daily. Measures once, cuts twice. Hates Foo Fighters. Drinks lots of coffee (keep it coming). Puts spiders outside. Brings balance to the force. Draws a perfect curve. Enjoys dark chocolate. Bangs on the drums. Always gets in the slow line. Orders from a menu. Hopes to be reincarnated. Speaks fluent Sarah Connor. Cooks tasty crack theory. Loves a good storm. Dances like a dork. Picks some locks. Tips well. Refuses to share the popcorn. Dreams about the future. Ignores the clock. Sings off key. Has a superpower. Shoots the paper bad guys. Needs some eyeliner. Goes to bed at dawn. Can't resist good smut. Quotes movie lines. Eats whipped yogurt. Lets the story tell itself. Maintains a rich fantasy life. Knows all the mysteries of the gods and of the universe.

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