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A: The creepy basement from D&D

Q: What do Weaver, Derek & Andy Goode have in common?

"Sleep is the perfect cover. Your mind's still active but you don't remember a thing."

Before actually seeing Some Must Watch, While Some Must Sleep, I was sure the whole sleep clinic thing was going to be a Skynet research facility messing with people's brains during sleep and it would eventually lead to whatever happened to Derek in the creepy basement. Obviously the episode didn't turn out that way and the sleep clinic itself was just a dream. But that line Sarah says when she's freaking out in that room in the basement of the sleep clinic is, I think, still a hint at what happened to Derek.

When Derek was taken down to the creepy basement in the flashbacks in Dungeons & Dragons, I think he was drugged into a sleep state and the liquid metal (Weaver) extracted information from him and implanted information in him.

About a year ago, I came up with a theory that Wisher had been brainwashed into believing he invented Skynet and was also implanted with the urge to confess it to Derek. It's a long and convoluted theory, but I'm still holding onto bits and pieces of it because I'm sure I've got some things right. The basic idea behind part of the theory is that Andy wasn't the creator of Skynet, but a hindrance to it (Andy wanted to understand his AI, not just rush the advancement of it). So Skynet wanted him removed from the equation to accelerate its development.

The reason my theory was so thin is because it hinged on Andy being brainwashed to confess to Derek and Derek being brainwashed to want to do something about it. But for any of that to work, Skynet would have had to know that Derek would get sent back in time (and how could it know that?).

Now, however, it's looking a little more possible. With what we've seen of 2027, future!John may not even be around (maybe even dead) and Cameron, who John confided in, seems to be running things. That means she may have been the one to send Derek back. We also now know there's liquid metal in 2027 (that I'm quite sure is Weaver) that Cameron has attempted to form an alliance with. Maybe they eventually meet and Weaver learns enough info that she formulates the whole plot for Derek to kill Andy. Maybe Weaver convinces Cameron to send Derek back or maybe Weaver just finds out Cameron is going to send Derek back.

I'm still not quite sure how it all fits together, but I think whatever happened to Derek (and Wisher) in the creepy basement must've involved sleep-induced brainwashing techniques that resulted in Wisher confessing to Derek and Derek going back in time to kill Andy. And I'm thinking Weaver was behind it all. In present time, Weaver seems to be accelerating the development of Skynet and she was able to do that because she acquired Andy's Turk to develop as she saw fit. It's all too much of a coincidence.


( 31 comments — Add a comment )
Mar. 25th, 2009 11:50 am (UTC)
I like your theory Roxy, it's a good one. The reservations I have about it conceptual from the POV of moving the plot and characters forward (which would be the writer's mistake, not yours).

Firstly, a theory of mine for you to think about:

The Terminators - both in general but anyway in the case of Weaverbot T100x series, should logically be networked wirelessly in some way, unless they've been sent back in the past and have to work autonomously, obviously. So even if it wasn't the actual Weaverbot liquid metal in the box that shouldn't actually matter from the POV of knowledge the players have in the situations that arise. The Weaverbots are a very interesting case actually, much closer to being at the status of something genuinely alive, IMHO. (I wonder if JF made a mistake in not making Cameron a T100x liquid metal Terminator, what say you?)

Bear in mind that future events are scenarios and not actual in Sarah's timeline. The talk between Jesse and Derek in "Today is the Day (2)" actually makes that crystal clear.

There is some interesting symmetry in the idea that humans can be programmed and will have to break their programming. It could turn out, for instance, that Cameron follows that kind of journey from the other side: Cameron breaking her programming to become human, Derek breaking his programming to regain his humanity.

The problem I see with it is, if humans can be programmed by Terminators then the only difference between them and Terminators is that they break more easily and you can't build a new one. This really isn't a satisfactory difference, both in terms of philosophy and emotional payoff of the characters and their development, IMHO.

There is a particular flaw in your logic here, in that if Weaverbot wanted the Turk to fix for herself then Billy Wisher / Andy Goode and killing him is pretty much irrelevant once Weaverbot gets the Turk. Your elaborate Derek / Wisher programming scenario appears to be logically unnecessary for this particular purpose. The Weaverbot just has to get hold of a "good enough" Turk. Having Derek back as a loose canon to kill Andy is a positive disadvantage in that case.

Yes, coincidences only happen in real life. Fiction has to make sense. Comments over at the official Terminator blog suggest the writers have plotted this out in the considerable long term in broad brush ways. I'm sure they have planted clues, at least starting towards the end of S1 after they found their feet.

I think you're on the right lines here, definitely. A slightly simpler explanation, which I'd find more satisfactory, is that the Terminators are primarily extracting information so's they can make Cameron-style infiltration units. "Alison From Palmdale" hinted at a much deeper level of modeling of a human personality than would be expected from a generalised case. It could mean that, for instance, a Derek or Billy Wisher Cameron-class Terminator could pop up. It could certainly mean the Weaverbot (and Cameron) may have considerably more information than they currently reveal. However, knowledge of a future scenario is of limited value when you're back in the past because, "There is no fate but what we make for ourselves."

Simplifying your theory as I suggest then ties together D&D and AFP and leaves Derek as an autonomous agent - which I would think kind of needs to be the point of humans vs machines.

What remains to be seen is what will be revealed in the next 3 episodes and if that gives any hints of a Season 3 or attempts to reach clean slate status.

(BTW, a comment on the TSCC official blog from a guy who has Blu-ray claims you can see Derek crying as he watches Cameron dance in "The Demon Hand." She did save his life once, after all. I'm hoping to have a marathon Blu-ray session with co-conspirators when S2 Blu-ray is available in the UK.)
Mar. 26th, 2009 09:14 am (UTC)
BTW, you need to re-watch "Dungeons and Dragons" - it appears Derek actually met and spoke to future John and multiple other characters saw and talked to future John. In Derek's timeline, future John was alive at least until Derek jumped back in time.

It's still possible that, whatever was the case in Derek's timeline, in Cameron's timeline future John was dead and she was pretending he was alive.

Right at the end of "D&D," Derek gives Billy Wisher a look, whilst he is saying (he and three members of) his team were to go back in time and "fix things," that suggests future John told him who Billy really was and that Derek's primary mission was to go back, kill Andy Goode and destroy the Turk and everything associated with it.
Mar. 26th, 2009 08:58 pm (UTC)
It's only implied that Derek met with and spoke to John, but we don't know for sure. Cameron could have acted as the go-between, pretending to be relaying info to and from John to Derek.

I never got the impression that future!John told Derek about Wisher. Unless future!John was behind the whole creepy basement thing, there's no way he could have known about that unless Derek told him. Wisher's confession to Derek seemed to me to be the first time he'd ever confessed about his true identity.

I went back and forth on the nod between Derek and Wisher, thinking it was either a couple buddies exchanging a hello or it was an acknowledgement that that Wisher and Derek had a pact that when Derek went back in time, he'd kill Wisher's younger self. I eventually settled on it being a greeting between them, though, not a pact about killing Andy Goode.

BTW, when it comes to season 1, there's nothing I missed. Interrpretation can very, but I've watched those episode so many times I think I could quote entire scripts ;)
(no subject) - johnnypate - Mar. 26th, 2009 09:22 pm (UTC) - Expand
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Mar. 25th, 2009 02:42 pm (UTC)
John being dead sounds really cool theory. Maybe it was Cameron who is left in charge and nobody knows. Cameron might have went back the first time, not only to protect him but learn what makes him work as a leader in the event he dies.

I don't understand the derek Brainwashing thing yet. Maybe they were only taking genetic samples. Do you think the same crappy/rubber skin terminator was the same that brainwashed Derek?
Mar. 26th, 2009 09:08 pm (UTC)
if future!John is dead, I think it leads to the notion that Cameron sent herself back in time. Obviously at least part of her mission is to protect John and help fight Skynet to prevent judgement day. I think we can believe that much mission because we've seen evidence of all of it. But she clearly has a larger agenda.

And now I'm formulating a theory on that agenda... oh there will be more posing later. :D

I seriously doubt it's supposed to be the same 600 series rubber-skinned terminator on the oil rig as in the creepy basement house. There are duplicates.
Mar. 26th, 2009 10:44 pm (UTC)
I'm rewatching it.
The "the answer is no" could mean that John was contacting the rebel terminators instead of skynet?

John Henry talks about finishing his "monster". Perhaps John Henry created the rebel faction as an offset of skynet - just for fun.
Mar. 25th, 2009 02:43 pm (UTC)
I mean from the submarine episode, who carried the suitcase
Mar. 25th, 2009 02:54 pm (UTC)
I love your theories :D

I do like the idea of Derek and Andy being brainwashed to the ends you describe. I'm still convinced the basement has something to do with Cameron, but I'm lacking on any real theories for why.
Mar. 26th, 2009 09:11 pm (UTC)
Yeah, the chopin music is what really links Cameron to the creepy basement. We know from Allison from Palmdale that Allison's mother (I think) loved Chopin and so Allison loved it. And that probably means Cameron (in the future) listened to it a lot to get into character as Allison. But because everyone's assumed for so long that Cameron was in the creepy basement, I want it to not be that ;)
(Deleted comment)
Mar. 26th, 2009 09:19 pm (UTC)
Interesting idea — that John knew about Fisher and didn't want him to go after him. I can't imagine why, though. Of course this goes against my idea that future!John is dead, but at the moment, I think that still qualifies as a wacky theory. I'll have to think on your idea.
Mar. 25th, 2009 04:45 pm (UTC)
This would somewhat explain why we have never seen Futuah! John and would be a pretty big mind-f. Plus it would tie into the general sense of malaise that we have had especially in the second half of the second season, everybody questioning who we are really fighting. It is just cyborgs serving humans fighting cyborgs killing humans.
Mar. 26th, 2009 09:49 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I think it's the mind fuck aspect of it that draws me to the idea more than anything else. But there also seems to be a lot of setup going on about future!John... Cameron saying he should basically live without human connection, Sarah saying "what kind of life is that?", and we've got John now starting to think more about (and question) who his future is.
Mar. 27th, 2009 03:50 pm (UTC)
Holy Moly.
My theory:

I've been trying to figure out why on EARTH Weaver would keep the little girl alive, because it makes no real sense. She could've explained away Savannah's death with the same crash that killed her husband if she'd arranged it properly.

The redhead woman Weaver stabbed on the Jimmy Carter is Savannah. (Oh and definitionally Weaver = the liquid metal on the sub, but that's probably obvious.)
Apr. 1st, 2009 01:41 am (UTC)
Re: Holy Moly.
I don't think Savannah was in the crash that killed her father. Weaver still could have made sure Savannah met with an unfortunate accident if she wanted to, though. My only guess at to why she's kept her alive is to have a human child around to learn from maybe.

I really doubt Petty Officer Goodnow was Savannah. I do agree that the liquid metal on the sub was who we know now as Weaver, though. I think she's a one-of-a-kind creations, just like the T-1000 was in T2.
( 31 comments — Add a comment )


roxy burglar
Roxy Bisquaint

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