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intrepid01
Apr. 4th, 2010 01:54 am (UTC)
*Pinch of salt*

Dekker likes to stir things up, but I really hope it's true because my faith has been waning.
roxybisquaint
Apr. 4th, 2010 03:26 am (UTC)
Yeah, I think he loves to get us all excited. But he loves the show and wants more of it just like we do. And he's not alone in that. So at the very least, this shows us that fan efforts are not in vain. There is still hope!
phantomwriter05
Apr. 4th, 2010 03:20 am (UTC)
I wish I could believe him.

but then ...

I remember the lies when the show was running so ...

It's a nice gesture though ...

but I think Lena and friedman have claimed they wouldn't ever return to it ...
roxybisquaint
Apr. 4th, 2010 03:25 am (UTC)
This isn't any kind of confirmation that the WB is going to do it, but it certainly shows that there is still a desire to do more. And as long as people involved in the show want it as much as we do (and as long as WB hasn't said NO), then hope is alive.

but I think Lena and friedman have claimed they wouldn't ever return to it

That's not true.
phantomwriter05
Apr. 4th, 2010 03:47 am (UTC)
I'm quite sure that friedman has said he washed his hands of it and in fact encouraged the fans to let it die.

but I remain a stout supporter of anything TSCC so I say go on.

PS. I was going to replay to your comment on i09 saying

"Fewer than you think ..."

"getting your show cancelled ... it makes you do things you would think of ... rox"

LOL I'm a dork ;)
cj2017
Apr. 4th, 2010 01:31 pm (UTC)
I'm quite sure that friedman has said he washed his hands of it and in fact encouraged the fans to let it die.

I think that was him reacting badly to the cancellation of the show he loved, and the manner in which it was cancelled. I'm not sure Friedman would return, but then, I'm not sure he was the most important person behind the scenes anyways (in terms of quality of writing that is.) The show could certainly continue without his creative input and manage just fine.

As for Dekker. I think the boy should come with his own salt-cellar attached so we can sprinkle it liberally over pretty much anything he says, but it's a nice thought.
phantomwriter05
Apr. 4th, 2010 08:07 pm (UTC)
I do remember Season one being awesome under middleton who refused to strike with the writers. (Good man)

So yeah ... but at the same time I'm also scared without Friedman, because even though it wasn't why I watched it I think that Friedman brought the Terminator staple of a love story to the show.

don't get me wrong I like ash miller but he sorely lacks the concept of a love story between John and Cameron that drew alot of people to the show.

I'm not trying to start a shipper war LOL

but what I'm trying to say is that Jameron was the Terminator franchise love story staple that made T-1 and T-2 great movies.

I mean they could bring in a new love intrest, but then we sae how well Riley worked out ...

So like I said I agree that TSCC doesn't need Friedman to countinue but the writers of the show sometimes need to be reeled in by a stronger hand so that they don't kill it with terminal artsieness

longest post ever!

LOL



roxybisquaint
Apr. 5th, 2010 09:02 am (UTC)
I do remember Season one being awesome under middleton who refused to strike with the writers.

He's not a writer, so he didn't have a reason to strike. I'm very glad of that too because I totally agree about season one awesomeness!


he sorely lacks the concept of a love story between John and Cameron that drew alot of people to the show

Fans shipping them is fine. John having confused feelings for a cyborg (the enemy, in a sense) is fine. But a full-on romantic relationship between them seems like such an anti-terminator idea; I can't even imagine the show would go that route.

And plenty of fans (like me) were not watching TSCC for a John and Cameron love story.


Jameron was the Terminator franchise love story staple that made T-1 and T-2 great movies.

No no no no no no no. Sarah/Derek was ;)

Edited at 2010-04-05 09:03 am (UTC)
cj2017
Apr. 5th, 2010 12:20 pm (UTC)
I will concur with Season one awesomeness. Two of my least favourite episodes of S2 were Friedman's (Samson & D and Born to Run) so I can certainly cope with the concept of him not being on board.

he sorely lacks the concept of a love story between John and Cameron that drew alot of people to the show

Ahh yes, um... moving swiftly on...

And plenty of fans (like me) were not watching TSCC for a John and Cameron love story.

What she said.

Jameron was the Terminator franchise love story staple that made T-1 and T-2 great movies.

Not for me, but if it floats yer boat. Personally, Sarah Connor made TSCC great. But then, everyone sings from a different hymn sheet, has a different take on the show and pulled different things from it. The show walked a fine line and - for the most part - did it successfully. BTR overstepped that line for me, so a continuation along that path wouldn't necessarily interest me.

No no no no no no no. Sarah/Derek was ;)

LOL Definitely what she said ;-)
phantomwriter05
Apr. 5th, 2010 06:26 pm (UTC)
LOL I might steal that icon ;)

like I said I'm not going for a shipper war ...

what I was trying to get across was the best Terminator Movies involve a love story that sticks with people.

and there is nothing in a season three setting but John and Cameron (according to what I've heard Alison and John don't like each other at all.)

that is all I'm getting at.

Plus Friedman has said point blank John isn't confused about Cameron he's in love and it was Cameron who was confused about everything between them.

moving on!

and Yes Sarah/Derek would have urned into one of the most volitile relationships (Sarah punching Derek and teh pointing of guns and what not ...)

but then if I remember that's what you want anyway ;)
roxybisquaint
Apr. 5th, 2010 11:27 pm (UTC)
I'm not going for a shipper war

what I was trying to get across was the best Terminator Movies involve a love story that sticks with people. and there is nothing in a season three setting but John and Cameron


It's cool. Ship who you want. But you'll fail hard if you're hoping to convince me that the show was about a John/Cameron romance. That simply doesn't follow from T1 Kyle talking about the man who taught them to storm the wire of the camps and smash those metal mother fuckers into junk when they were *that close* to going out forever.

What I believe there most certainly can be is a John who experiences tremendous loss in his life, is betrayed by humans, who is struggling to grow up. That John can certainly detour for a while into caring for a machine as he finds his way. And that, I believe, is the John story they were trying to tell but fumbled.



Plus Friedman has said point blank John isn't confused about Cameron he's in love and it was Cameron who was confused about everything between them.

If Josh said that, he wasn't paying any attention to his own show. But I'm guessing that was specifically in reference to the time jump in BTR. That's the only moment of clarity John ever seemed to have regarding his feelings for Cameron. I have big problems with that anyway because I think they put story ahead of character in a scramble to create a WOW ending to try to save the show.



and Yes Sarah/Derek would have urned into one of the most volitile relationships (Sarah punching Derek and teh pointing of guns and what not ...)

but then if I remember that's what you want anyway ;)


Word. That's what made them so interesting to me. It would never have been a love story, that's for sure. But the tension between them because of Kyle, because of their differences in viewpoint, because Derek wasn't entirely trustworthy... it had all the makings of a very complex and enjoyable relationship, whether they ever actually hopped in bed together or not. I was interested in the relationship, not a romance. When it comes to fic, though, I do enjoy me some good Sarah/Derek smut! :D

PS - Sorry for all the edits. I should learn to proof read :P

Edited at 2010-04-05 11:35 pm (UTC)
bobmacpharson
Apr. 6th, 2010 05:46 am (UTC)
>>If Josh said that, he wasn't paying any attention to his own show.

I think the line he's referring to is in the commentary of Samson and Delilah. (I think the gist is that when Cameron says "I love you and you love me," Friedman says something along the lines of "And that's one of the core conflicts of Season 2, that John loves Cameron even though he shouldn't and she knows that he loves her and he knows that she knows and that a large part of season 2 is John deliberately distancing himself from her to avoid dealing with that.

That actually annoyed me because while I am totally a John/Cameron shipper, at that point there WASN'T enough history and chemistry between them for the word "love" to be applicable.

>>>I was interested in the relationship, not a romance.

This is what I think about John/Cameron. The word "romance" in particular does not apply. Romance implies a degree of... I dunno, "floweriness," that would simply not exist between these two characters no matter what. But the relationship between them is fascinating.

Disclaimer: originally I just started writing out a lengthy rant about how I think the series should have continued/concluded. I'm not sure whether that was actually interesting or not. Having written it, I'm going to go ahead and post it. But the bottom line that I DO think is worth discussing is this: what do you think the ending for each character's arc should be? I think we should agree that John ends as a master military genius who manages to maintain perfect empathy with both people and machines. I have strong opinions on what Cameron should end up as, that I think you might disagree with, but I'm not sure what you WOULD think her final arc should be. (I get the sense that Cameron doesn't interest you as much as a character and that you consequently haven't thought about it so much).
bobmacpharson
Apr. 6th, 2010 05:47 am (UTC)
My original rant is below. It's too late for me to try and edit it into a more manageable post. Enjoy, or not:


[i]The original rant[/i]

What's I said before is that I am absolutely sure Cameron is supposed to have "feelings," but they are not human feelings. We know for a fact that John Henry has emotional states, and I don't think for a second they would limit them to one robot character.

I think that the Cameron we know so far has been largely manipulating John. She has a respect for Future John, but probably still thinks she knows "better" than him about some things. She thinks Future John sent her back to protect our John, and she's taking advantage of the situation to also manipulate our John into being all machinelike and perfect. (I believe that Future John in fact sent Cameron back to learn from our John, knowing that she would try to manipulate him but confident enough in his past self to see through the manipulation and eventually manipulate her back).

When last we saw, John's feelings for Cameron were confused and immature. (To some degree, so were his feelings for Riley). So far, all Cameron knows about emotions is the teenage, hormonal irrational things that she's seen so far. So as far as she knows, she's justified in destroying that part of him completely.

I think Season three would have ended with her being temporarily successful. (This seems fairly straightforward from a storytelling perspective. If it's 5-6 seasons long, it needs to end with John being both a brilliant and compassionate leader. It makes sense to use the bizarro-future to establish military brilliance but swing him closer to Cameron's machinelike-ness so they can pull him back later).

Later on down the road, something needs to happen to cause Cameron to re-evaluate everything she thinks she knows about human emotion. I think the best thing for the series would be to show Sarah accomplishing something extraordinary (in my imaginary-head-fanfic it's doing one of those hulk-mothers-who-lift-a-car-when-they-shouldn't-be-able-to-to-save-their-baby kind of things) specifically BECAUSE of her love for her son.

In the wake of that, the all-knowing-manipulative Cameron suddenly dies, because she realizes her entire plan was built on a false assumption about human feelings, and it is very possible that rather than having "improved" John she has damaged him irrevocably. For the remainder of the show she is struggling to understand human emotions on their own terms.

Ideally the show ends with Cameron, John and Sarah all completing their character arcs and achieving apotheosis at once in a big climactic moment. I don't have many good thoughts for what this would mean for Sarah (I'd be interested if you have a clear idea of where the show should end as far as she's concerned). For John, this means re-developing his empathy for both people AND machines, and combining that with his tactical genius to unite and lead both the human resistance and the Weaver faction. I actually think a good ending for the show would be a peace treaty with Skynet, because at these point there's so many time travel shenanigans going on that it's impossible for either Skynet nor the humans to wipe each other out.

For Cameron, it means coming to understand and respect John for who he truly is instead of who she thought he should be, and reaching a point where she would willingly choose to remain his friend because doing so is inherently valuable rather than a means to an end, or because she was ordered to. I think that is a plausible ending for her character arc, and I think it is not unreasonable to call it a form of love.
roxybisquaint
Apr. 6th, 2010 08:44 am (UTC)
I think the line he's referring to is in the commentary of Samson and Delilah. (I think the gist is that when Cameron says "I love you and you love me," Friedman says something along the lines of "And that's one of the core conflicts of Season 2, that John loves Cameron even though he shouldn't and she knows that he loves her and he knows that she knows and that a large part of season 2 is John deliberately distancing himself from her to avoid dealing with that.

That actually annoyed me because while I am totally a John/Cameron shipper, at that point there WASN'T enough history and chemistry between them for the word "love" to be applicable.


I only listened to the DVD commentary once so I don't even remember it, but I'm totally with you on that. No matter how you view the relationship between John and Cameron, there simply wasn't enough time and history yet for him to actually love her. He'd only known her for two months at that point.

I read the pulling-the-chip scene as John hesitating because she said "I love you" but then knowing she was bluffing when she said "you love me". Putting the chip back, however, seemed to be the start of his confused feelings. That arc didn't work for me, though. I only know it's supposed to be there because it's the only way to explain the time jump. I think they tried to pile too much on John in one season and as a result, none of it worked well.



This is what I think about John/Cameron. The word "romance" in particular does not apply. Romance implies a degree of... I dunno, "floweriness," that would simply not exist between these two characters no matter what. But the relationship between them is fascinating.

Even when it comes to John and Cameron, I actually very much enjoyed the relationship (in season 1). The hot girl that he totally responds to who ends up being just a robot on a mission, but really she knows his future self quite well (or at least seems to) so there's a strange one-sided relationship already in play. He's weirded-out by her and yet drawn to her even though he knows he shouldn't be. She's a cyborg, she's sort of his sister and it's all very strange and intriguing.

John already had that history with Uncle Bob - latching onto a cyborg for lack of a human to bond with. In that one, it was a father figure. With Cameron, it was companionship. So there's nothing that screams NOT CANON to have John facing feelings for a robot like that. A boyfriend/girlfriend lovey romance, though, no way. After he attempted a real relationship with a human girl (Riley) and it turned out that she was just a pawn in a future chess game, it was the perfect setup to really explore John turning to Cameron. Too bad they fucked it up by rushing it with a ridiculous time jump of true love!



what do you think the ending for each character's arc should be? I think we should agree that John ends as a master military genius who manages to maintain perfect empathy with both people and machines. I have strong opinions on what Cameron should end up as, that I think you might disagree with, but I'm not sure what you WOULD think her final arc should be. (I get the sense that Cameron doesn't interest you as much as a character and that you consequently haven't thought about it so much).

I do actually think about Cameron a lot, but I'm not emotionally invested in her. She's not the POV character and not who I follow. But she interests me and intrigues me and I've spent a great deal of time trying to figure out her story. Most of my enjoyment of Cameron, though, comes from her scenes with Sarah.

I remember you asking me this once before and I think I said "I'll get back to you on that" and never did. LOL. I didn't actually mean to dodge it. It's a hard question and the trouble for me is that I don't really want an outcome. I don't want the story to conclude. But I'll try to think in terms of a natural ending to TSCC had it gotten a couple seasons to play out as intended. This will still take some thought and I'm out of brain power right now. I won't dodge it this time, though!

Edited at 2010-04-06 08:48 am (UTC)
bobmacpharson
Apr. 6th, 2010 02:43 pm (UTC)
In isolation, I really like Samson and Delilah. It's just that it chronologically comes too soon. So my personal retcon has been that Season 1 lasted a full 20 imaginary episodes that gave John and Cameron more time to get to know one another and develop some weird inverted chemistry. I think "Vik's chip" was intended to be the episode that summed all that up - there you have Cameron having the opportunity to leave and take over a giant computer system and not doing so, establishing a measure of trust with John. They needed a little more than that, so that John is just starting to genuinely understand and care about Cameron when she suddenly turns against him.

If you assume that you had that extra breathing room, I think not only does Samson and Delilah make more sense but so does the time jump. (At least from John's perspective. I understand why you don't like it from Sarah's perspective. I can't think of anything to have fixed that apart from making the whole scene faster paced, so that it's not so much a deliberate decision on everyone's part but rather a split-second decision they make in the heat of the moment).
roxybisquaint
Apr. 6th, 2010 06:24 pm (UTC)
So my personal retcon has been that Season 1 lasted a full 20 imaginary episodes that gave John and Cameron more time to get to know one another and develop some weird inverted chemistry.

The super short first season was definitely part of the problem. Had the first season been a full season (or even the additional four episodes it was supposed to be), the stuff they did in season 2 probably all would've worked much better. We'd barely gotten to know these characters when they split them all up and changed them.

I agree about the significance of Vick's Chip for John and Cameron. It was really the beginning of John having feelings for her. She protected him from Cromartie and established a level of trust (which is such a huge theme with John and Cameron). She tried so hard to make him trust her that I am always suspicious of her motives.


I understand why you don't like it from Sarah's perspective. I can't think of anything to have fixed that apart from making the whole scene faster paced

I don't like it from John's perspective either, but it's easier to view that as him just not thinking through the implications of the jump: Cameron's gone, we have to get her back. Mom? BAM. Gone. There's no way to fix that moment for Sarah, though. She clearly does think it through, so... augh. :P

bobmacpharson
Apr. 6th, 2010 06:34 pm (UTC)
That's why the only fix I can think of is to get rid of her ability to think it through. I think the scene would work if it consisted more of her pleading with John to not go, perhaps almost going in with him, then hesitating a bit too long at the last second. The "I'll fix it" line could come after the energy bubble had fully formed and it was too, a sort of after-the-fact "okay, I need to find a way to spin this in my head as a good thing" as opposed to a deliberate choice.
roxybisquaint
Apr. 7th, 2010 12:33 am (UTC)
In isolation, I really like Samson and Delilah. It's just that it chronologically comes too soon.

I meant to comment on that. I liked S&D too initially because it was a very well done actiony episode that still managed to throw a hell of a lot of heart into it. In retrospect, I started liking it less, though, because it set up a lot that I felt didn't work in season 2 and most of that was for the reason you said: too soon.
phantomwriter05
Apr. 6th, 2010 06:09 pm (UTC)
LOL

I can play Devil's advocate here and say that Kyle and Sarah had little to no time to have chemistry or history.

Yeah Kyle had a picture but then at the same time Cameron had Future!John.

While Teenage John and Sarah had no base for there partners.

So I think that to make that arguement is sort of defeating the purpose how falling in love works.
bobmacpharson
Apr. 6th, 2010 06:30 pm (UTC)
Oh I absolutely believe that Terminator 1 fails miserably in terms of setting up a believable love story. I have to completely re-imagine that scene in my head in order for the entire Terminator saga to make sense.
roxybisquaint
Apr. 6th, 2010 06:34 pm (UTC)
Touche. That mirroring does bother me a bit, but I've never believed the show intended to create a new version of T1 with John and Cameron in the Sarah and Kyle roles. Sarah didn't fall in love with Kyle in those two days, though. Her love was all retrospective. They had an compressed, emotionally intense experience and it changed her entire life. So afterwards, she built it up in her mind. The love for Kyle kept her going in the aftermath.

bobmacpharson
Apr. 7th, 2010 12:18 am (UTC)
>>>They had an compressed, emotionally intense experience and it changed her entire life. So afterwards, she built it up in her mind. The love for Kyle kept her going in the aftermath.

That's a good way of putting it. I always wondered if Kyle was actually a good guy at all. In T1 he comes across as pretty creepy, honestly.
roxybisquaint
Apr. 7th, 2010 12:46 am (UTC)
I have too big of a soft spot for Kyle to ever think of him as creepy, even if he kind f is. LOL.

I imagine Kyle being this scared kid in the work camp that John takes under his wing. Having someone to look out for helps John keep his own head together and of course, it's his dad, so he'd want to keep him close to make sure nothing happened to him. At some point, John hands that photo to Kyle and tells him something like "she's the best fighter there ever was and she always kept me safe. I keep her picture with me for luck and now I want you to have it." And the legend of Sarah Connor begins.

Kyle takes the photo as his good luck charm and as he gets older, it becomes almost like a pin-up girl pic to him. He fantasizes about her, etc and eventually volunteers for the mission to protect her when the time comes. So yeah, he's kind of pervy in my mind. But I love him any way because... he's Kyle ;)
bobmacpharson
Apr. 7th, 2010 12:55 am (UTC)
Yeah, that's pretty much how it'd go down.
bobmacpharson
Apr. 8th, 2010 06:24 am (UTC)
I've been thinking a little more about the end of Sarah's arc. I'm trying to think of a satisfying ending that isn't "sacrifice yourself for the good of your son." Her willingness to sacrifice for John is a pretty key trait, but the ending of a show needs to be a sort of subversion of the main character trait. The closets I can think of is something like the end of Season 2, wherein she makes a sacrifice but John ends up saving her. Except that that's already been done. You know, at the end of Season 2.

In general it's really weird, since the climax would inevitably have to focus on John, but Sarah is the titular character so everything needs to tie together in a way that makes her actions at least as important as his.

One thing I do think is important is for Sarah to eventually come to terms with Cameron, and machines in general. She is extremely prejudiced and frankly ignorant about them, and has generally left it up to her son to deal with them. On the flip side, Cameron needs to learn that human relationships are inherently important, not just a means to an end.

In addition, the ending needs to show John being able to handle his responsibility without other people supporting him ("supporting" as in doing his leadership job for him). So perhaps a good last episode would be for John to be isolated from both Sarah and Cameron while he faces his final challenge. To drive home that John is now a leader, he may have actually sent Sarah and Cameron away on a mission, as opposed to been forced apart by circumstance a la Born to Run.

So, maybe Cameron and Sarah get sent on a mission together, without the ability to communicate with John. Something goes horribly wrong, so they have re-evaluate their mission priorities, and resolve their differences in how they would normally prioritize things like civilian casualties and what-not. A good moment for Cameron would be to have a choice between doing something to help John and doing something to save Sarah, and choosing to save Sarah because she's learned that Sarah is someone valuable in her own right, not just because she happens to be John's mother and a good warrior. Sarah in turn comes with a plan that somehow showcases respect for Cameron and... I dunno, accomplishes something awesome.
roxybisquaint
Apr. 9th, 2010 06:10 am (UTC)
Just so you know, I'm reading through your "original rant" and this additional post and I'm also formulating my character arc endings. I have a clearer vision than I thought I would, but it's more general than specific. Anyway, I'm working on it ;)
roxybisquaint
Apr. 9th, 2010 07:51 am (UTC)
I think the best thing for the series would be to show Sarah accomplishing something extraordinary (in my imaginary-head-fanfic it's doing one of those hulk-mothers-who-lift-a-car-when-they-shouldn't-be-able-to-to-save-their-baby kind of things) specifically BECAUSE of her love for her son.

L
O
L

I just had to comment on that TV reference. I watched The Incredible Hulk when I was a kid and I could immediately see the scene in my head: "and it's like I was lifting up the car!" Oh, poor David Banner. All he wanted was a little super human strength in times of crisis.
roxybisquaint
Apr. 5th, 2010 08:37 am (UTC)
the boy should come with his own salt-cellar attached so we can sprinkle it liberally over pretty much anything he says

Thanks a lot. Now I want some salty snacks. :P
fig_aruna
Apr. 4th, 2010 03:35 am (UTC)
SA-WEEEEEEET!
roxybisquaint
Apr. 5th, 2010 08:35 am (UTC)
Super sweet!
tackdriver56
Apr. 6th, 2010 12:58 pm (UTC)
Relationships ARE what make stories interesting...
If "reality" TV has demonstrated anything of value, it is that we audiences are interested in relationships between the characters in whatever setting they inhabit.

We are interested in their romances and alliances, their conflicts, their intrigues, their fatal flaws.

Jameron was interesting in that it revealed some aspects of the two characters, while keeping enough distance between them and us, to maintain mystery.

That John and Cameron MUST be central to Season 3, is a myopic viewpoint. From a character development / exploration perspective, Season 3 might spend many episodes on John Henry's maturation and coexistence with Cameron, and their conflict with Skynet, presented in parallel with John Connor's maturation and integration with the Resistance.

What made the Derek and Sarah relationship interesting was the conflicted alliance. We don't, they don't, know what each other is capable of, or their true agenda.

That is still true of John Connor, Cameron, John Henry, Catherine Weaver, Alison Young, Danny Dyson.

We probably know Sarah best of all, but she remains interesting because of her uncertainty regarding those around her, her apparent vulnerability and lethality.
That, and if things ever settle down enough for her to relax, her enormous sex appeal.

You will notice that I didn't mention Riley, or Jesse.
roxybisquaint
Apr. 9th, 2010 06:18 am (UTC)
Re: Relationships ARE what make stories interesting...
Absolutely. And I agree that the same is true of John and Cameron too. It's the interactions of the characters and the nature of the relationships — what it shows us about them, how they evolve as a result of it, how they conflict, how they work together — all of that makes for awesomeness.


You will notice that I didn't mention Riley, or Jesse.

Their absence did not make my heart grow fonder.
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