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O Jameron, my Jameron

I haven't had my jameronectomy reversed, if that's what you're thinking. But it's clear that there was some sort of relationship between John and Cameron in the future that she came from and I've been thinking about what it was and why it came about.

"He wasn't talking to anyone anymore, just her."

I've decided John became attached to Cameron in the future because he was depressed about having sent Kyle away on his one-way mission to 1984 1983. That's no doubt a point when he would've been at his lowest — feeling horrible, guilty and sad and unable to tell anyone why. It was a huge loss and he had to grieve alone. So I think John closed himself off from the people around him and retreated inward. But by then, a reprogrammed Cameron was there (I'm thinking she was his bodyguard) and he found himself talking to her — finding companionship with a machine who would never die.

From a timeline standpoint, I think it fits. Based on what Perry told Derek in D&D, reprogrammed machines were already being used by the Resistance by the time Kyle left. So all the reprogramming started in between Derek getting nabbed and Kyle time jumping. Since the show implies that it was Cameron who interrogated Derek in the creepy basement, Allison would've already been dead by then and her bracelet in Cam's possession. Once she got the location of the bunker from Derek, she would've been on her way to infiltrate and kill John.



Comments

( 74 comments — Add a comment )
indiefic
Jan. 19th, 2010 02:32 pm (UTC)
My take is that however manipulative Cameron is, Future!John is a thousand times as manipulative and he was manipulating Cameron so she would/could in turn manipulate his younger self.

As for the "He wasn't talking to anyone anymore, just her." line, meh. I figure General John Connor only lets people see what he wants them to see. In the end, I absolutely do not buy any sort of emotional relationship between Cameron and Future!John (Cameron and Emo!Teenage!John is an entirely different story). And I don't buy the idea that Cameron has any emotions at all, full stop.

Of course, my Jameron denial is mighty.
bobmacpharson
Jan. 19th, 2010 06:47 pm (UTC)
I don't think John and Cameron would ever have the type of relationship that Jameronians clamor for (I confess I am a Jameronian so typing those words is difficult). However, if you don't think Cameron has any types of emotions whatsoever I think you haven't been paying attention. One of best things about the show, IMO, is how it shows robots that are each, theoretically, completely logical, but who have developed very different personalities. And they do this not by saying "oh they just have human emotions" a la Battlestar Galactica, (or any other story with robots, pretty much), but by developing emotions that actually make sense for a machine to have.

John Henry is playful and inquisitive. Cameron (appears to be) both manipulative and, in some way, loyal. Cromartie at first seems ruthlessly effective as Terminators are all supposed to be, but even he got that weird fixation on Ellison, to the point where he killed another Terminator so that Ellison could live and eventually lead him to the Connors. Weaver is has a kind of loyalty/manipulative streak similar to Cameron, but her loyalty is of a more maternal sort towards John Henry. Their thought processes are complex enough that they have attitudes towards people that are analogous to emotions even if they don't "feel" the way a human would.

My original supposition (after Allison from Palmdale and Samson and Delilah) was that there were a small number of Terminators with a "manufacturing error" that allowed one section of their brain to create counter-orders to override their original orders. This didn't eliminate their original orders, just allowed them to surpress them. My theory was that Cameron actually WASN'T reprogrammed - for some reason John needed her memory intact for her to complete her mission, and that instead he had actually convinced her to override them herself. This made her actions in Samson and Delilah make a lot more sense - if she had gotten a clean wipe she wouldn't have identified John Connor as the "primary target," even if she did revert to a "kill all humans" baseline.

(This would also explain why she appears to know Derek way back when they first met him. Earlier that episode she said "I don't remember him" to John, citing the wipe-when-reprogramming policy, but later on Derek says "I know you" and she says "and I know you.")

Later episodes and the commentary appear to muddle this somewhat. Friedman seems to indicate a more generic explanation that I found a lot less satisfying, but this may have been a deliberate attempt to keep things vague until the eventual reveal of her motivations. Dunno. Regardless, Weaver still seems to fit this theory. I mean, she clearly had a choice whether to join John or not, as opposed to being reprogrammed. And until Cameron's backstory gets cleared up I'm leaning towards my original interpretation.

I think that Cameron (and Weaver) came to the realization that there are things they can learn from humanity that they can only observe if humanity is allowed to survive in a "natural" setting. I.e. you can't see us doing the things that make us interesting and special if you have us locked in a cage. If Skynet wipes out humanity... what then? What purpose would machines have? Finding a way to coexist with humanity is a legitimate, logical choice that doesn't hinge on sentimental value of human life.

For Weaver, this means focusing on a means to stop Skynet. For Cameron, I think this means trying to understand human behavior. By all accounts, Skynet should have wiped out the resistance. They were not only more numerous and technologically advanced - they SHOULD have been far smarter. Yet humans won the first time around. They have something machines do not and Cameron wants to know what it is.
(no subject) - bobmacpharson - Jan. 19th, 2010 06:47 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - indiefic - Jan. 19th, 2010 07:26 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - bobmacpharson - Jan. 19th, 2010 08:07 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - bobmacpharson - Jan. 19th, 2010 08:07 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - roxybisquaint - Jan. 22nd, 2010 09:22 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - roxybisquaint - Jan. 22nd, 2010 09:10 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - bobmacpharson - Jan. 23rd, 2010 07:10 am (UTC) - Expand
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roxybisquaint
Jan. 19th, 2010 08:36 pm (UTC)
he was manipulating Cameron so she would/could in turn manipulate his younger self

Ooooo. Now that's an interesting spin on manipulative John. I never considered that he was pretending to be close to her just so she'd be better at manipulating his younger self. I think that would cause trouble for my future!John is dead when Cameron jumps to 1999 belief, though.


I absolutely do not buy any sort of emotional relationship between Cameron and Future!John (Cameron and Emo!Teenage!John is an entirely different story). And I don't buy the idea that Cameron has any emotions at all, full stop.

I tend to think future!John was too emotionally attached to her and what Jesse said about him was true at face value. But I also think that John Connor was kind of fucked up because he lost his mother too soon (my theory is that Sarah would've ended up in prison when John was still 15 in the timeline that preceded Cameron). And I think the story we get in the show is meant to be how John Connor ends up such a great leader and the savior of humanity. Though they made it really hard to believe that since he was so douchey and jumping through time for Cameron!

No, I don't buy Cameron having emotions either. At all. Any emotions see ever seems to have are just mimicry of people around her and of Allison. So when I say "relationship" I mean a one-way thing where John became emotionally attached to her. Like current John did in the show. From Cameron's side of things, John is her mission, her job, her purpose and nothing more.
(no subject) - bobmacpharson - Jan. 19th, 2010 08:56 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - bobmacpharson - Jan. 19th, 2010 09:02 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - fig_aruna - Jan. 20th, 2010 04:08 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - bobmacpharson - Jan. 20th, 2010 04:40 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - fig_aruna - Jan. 20th, 2010 06:54 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - roxybisquaint - Jan. 22nd, 2010 09:57 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - indiefic - Jan. 20th, 2010 01:20 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - roxybisquaint - Jan. 22nd, 2010 10:28 am (UTC) - Expand
valhallalilly
Jan. 19th, 2010 03:03 pm (UTC)
I don't think it was because of Kyle at all.


And maybe one day I will be able to exound on that statement but today is not looking like that day ;)
roxybisquaint
Jan. 19th, 2010 08:15 pm (UTC)
Well until you do, your comment doesn't count!
gega_cai
Jan. 19th, 2010 04:57 pm (UTC)
I agree, I've always thought Kyle being sent back was the catalyst for John's attachment to Cameron and overuse of machines once Derek has returned to see
gega_cai
Jan. 19th, 2010 05:01 pm (UTC)
That is to say, I think Kyle would have it known that using machines was wrong and Kyle's influence on John is far more gospel than Cameron's

Though, maybe John is still capable of being steps a head of Cameron (and Skynet)
roxybisquaint
Jan. 19th, 2010 09:18 pm (UTC)
Oh goodie. I like when I find out other people are thinking along the same lines. It makes me feel like I'm not so wacky!

And it totally makes sense, doesn't it? There has to be a motivation for the son of Sarah Connor — the man who lives through the apocalypse, witnesses the slaughter of humans by machines, and is imprisoned in a Skynet work camp where the human race is that close to going out forever — would anthropomorphize to such an extent.
equustel
Jan. 19th, 2010 07:22 pm (UTC)
Hmm, I like this theory. It ties in with what John tells Jesse in Today is the Day, Part 2 - that he finally understands why his future self decided to depend on machines so much. "Human beings can't be replaced. They can't be rebuilt. They die and they never come back."

Present John is already dealing with the loss of his father, so it makes a sad sort of sense that he'd come to the same conclusion, and confide in Cameron for the same reasons he might have in the future.
roxybisquaint
Jan. 19th, 2010 09:09 pm (UTC)
Exactly! I think John's closeness to Cameron in the future she came from parallels his closeness to her in the present timeline we've seen in the show. The loss of people he cares about (even the loss of people he doesn't know, like all those FBI guys) ultimately push him toward reliance on (and companionship with) machines.

He's totally right about why they're useful — human beings can't be replaced. But until he finds the balance, things are kind of messed up for John, both in the prior timeline (future!John) and the current one (our John).

Edited at 2010-01-19 09:12 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - bobmacpharson - Jan. 19th, 2010 09:20 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - roxybisquaint - Jan. 19th, 2010 09:26 pm (UTC) - Expand
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tackdriver56
Jan. 20th, 2010 01:59 pm (UTC)
"They Never Come Back..." advert idea / ripoff
Rather like good sci-fi shows on Fox? (Sorry)

A.D. Detour:
Actually that line ... "they never come back", stimulated a flashback to an old advertisement for Brylcream (TM) hair tonic. I had visions of Kyle "I came back", Derek "I came back", Cameron "I came back",
(all) "We all came back... for The Sarah Connor Chronicles".

As for John dealing with the loss of his father, I don't buy it. Kyle was a follower of John Connor, but he was never a father to John, other than in the biological sense. John would feel the loss of a friend, but not the loss of a parent.

Perhaps he would confide in Cameron, because she would be the one left standing, while ALL the humans seem to "die and never come back".

phantomwriter05
Jan. 20th, 2010 01:58 am (UTC)
Oh Rox the stories you tell ... ;)

I can acutally get on board with your theory where it relates to Derek's and Cameron's Timelines.

but once we get to Jesse and Riley I think we're getting into a Future!John who has spent twenty years with Cameron and has started the Resistance with her by his side. as well as given up on any attenable normal human relationship and has chosen to all but marry Cameron.

thus the comment "Telling me is the same as telling John."

notice how she doesn't say "General Connor or Connor" she says John.

but that's my theory since Strange thing happen at the 1,2 point.
fig_aruna
Jan. 20th, 2010 03:46 am (UTC)
notice how she doesn't say "General Connor or Connor" she says John.

Hmm..! Never really thought about that before...
schmacky0
Jan. 20th, 2010 03:50 am (UTC)
So because Cameron calls John John they're basically married? I don't buy it.

Like indiefic said way up there, they left things so vague that all of us can come to our own conclusions.

But outside of the married bit.. I'm not too sure about Cameron being with John for 20 years anyway. I don't think she was. I think the Jesse's future is where Cameron is from .. our Cameron. And I don't think she was with John for 20 years.

I do like Roxy's theory on why John has built this companionship with Cameron.. after he sent Kyle out.
(no subject) - phantomwriter05 - Jan. 20th, 2010 06:14 am (UTC) - Expand
Timeline Spaghetti - tackdriver56 - Jan. 20th, 2010 03:16 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - tackdriver56 - Jan. 20th, 2010 03:18 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - bobmacpharson - Jan. 20th, 2010 03:52 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - tackdriver56 - Jan. 20th, 2010 04:39 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - bobmacpharson - Jan. 20th, 2010 05:22 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - roxybisquaint - Jan. 27th, 2010 07:23 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - fig_aruna - Jan. 20th, 2010 06:49 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - tackdriver56 - Jan. 21st, 2010 02:10 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - fig_aruna - Jan. 21st, 2010 06:58 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - tackdriver56 - Jan. 21st, 2010 08:25 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - roxybisquaint - Jan. 27th, 2010 07:36 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - roxybisquaint - Jan. 27th, 2010 07:44 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - tackdriver56 - Jan. 27th, 2010 08:39 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - roxybisquaint - Jan. 27th, 2010 08:53 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - tackdriver56 - Jan. 27th, 2010 10:47 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - roxybisquaint - Jan. 27th, 2010 07:33 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - roxybisquaint - Jan. 27th, 2010 07:18 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - roxybisquaint - Jan. 22nd, 2010 11:46 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - tackdriver56 - Jan. 27th, 2010 02:32 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - roxybisquaint - Jan. 27th, 2010 07:51 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - tackdriver56 - Jan. 28th, 2010 02:32 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - roxybisquaint - Jan. 31st, 2010 08:07 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - roxybisquaint - Jan. 27th, 2010 07:09 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Timeline Spaghetti - tackdriver56 - Jan. 27th, 2010 09:21 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - fig_aruna - Jan. 20th, 2010 06:43 pm (UTC) - Expand
roxybisquaint
Jan. 22nd, 2010 11:44 am (UTC)
Oh Rox the stories you tell ... ;)

It's entertaining, though, right? :P

Mostly I was looking for a motivation because no matter what kind of relationship anyone thinks young John and Cameron they have now, it started in the future with future!John and Cameron.


once we get to Jesse and Riley I think we're getting into a Future!John who has spent twenty years with Cameron and has started the Resistance with her by his side

That's one I've gone back and forth on because of the way Jesse says... "Imagine if he spends the next 20 years with her. Imagine what hell become, what she'll turn him into." ... I always think she means that it's bad enough close John is with Cameron in the future she (Jesse) came from and if he now spends the next 20 years with her it'll be MUCH worse.

But Then it doesn't make much sense that way since the only reason to come back in time to stop Cameron is if Jesse knew Cameron jumped. And if she did, then why worry since that would mean Cameron was no longer even in future!John's life anyway? There's just something that doesn't quite add up for me with Jesse and Cameron. And I have argued myself into different conclusions before. Yes I argue with myself over TSCC sometimes... don't judge ;)

Anyway, I'm now leaning to your view on that and it;s also sparked a total crack theory about Cameron that will likely consume my every thought for the next few days! And if I end up not discarding it, I'll post about it next week and heads will probably explode... but in a good way.
(no subject) - phantomwriter05 - Jan. 22nd, 2010 11:16 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - bobmacpharson - Jan. 23rd, 2010 07:26 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - roxybisquaint - Jan. 27th, 2010 06:51 pm (UTC) - Expand
Multi-Loop Cameron - tackdriver56 - Jan. 27th, 2010 09:30 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - roxybisquaint - Jan. 27th, 2010 06:48 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tackdriver56 - Jan. 27th, 2010 09:33 pm (UTC) - Expand
Cameron's emotions - tackdriver56 - Jan. 27th, 2010 09:41 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Cameron's emotions - roxybisquaint - Feb. 1st, 2010 06:49 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Cameron's emotions - bobmacpharson - Feb. 1st, 2010 01:25 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Cameron's emotions - tackdriver56 - Feb. 1st, 2010 05:44 pm (UTC) - Expand
( 74 comments — Add a comment )

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roxy burglar
roxybisquaint
Roxy Bisquaint

Roxy Bisquaint...

Is self-indulgent. Over thinks everything. Tweets too much. Looks really good in these jeans. Wants to eat butterscotch. Makes herself laugh. Obsesses about aging. Does some crunches. Lives with two ghosts. Procrastinates daily. Measures once, cuts twice. Hates Foo Fighters. Drinks lots of coffee (keep it coming). Puts spiders outside. Brings balance to the force. Draws a perfect curve. Enjoys dark chocolate. Bangs on the drums. Always gets in the slow line. Orders from a menu. Hopes to be reincarnated. Speaks fluent Sarah Connor. Cooks tasty crack theory. Loves a good storm. Dances like a dork. Picks some locks. Tips well. Refuses to share the popcorn. Dreams about the future. Ignores the clock. Sings off key. Has a superpower. Shoots the paper bad guys. Needs some eyeliner. Goes to bed at dawn. Can't resist good smut. Quotes movie lines. Eats whipped yogurt. Lets the story tell itself. Maintains a rich fantasy life. Knows all the mysteries of the gods and of the universe.

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