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wacky TSCC theory #352

It's really not so wacky (your heads are safe).

I don't think Derek killed Jesse, so I've been trying to figure out if we'd ever run into her again in present day. I can't see any reason to have a time traveler wandering about without being part of the story, so we must not be be done with her. But with Riley dead, Derek dead, John away in the future and Cameron out of commission, Jesse doesn't exactly have anything to do these days. Hmm...

The miscarriage tidbit they shoehorned into her story at the last minute didn't make any sense at all. In fact, I thought it weakened the character considerably. Instead of being a dedicated soldier trying to fix her commander, she became a chick with a personal grudge. That's no good at all. And we know TSCC is better than that. So then why the miscarriage? It's not like it died with Jesse's story either; Cameron mentions it to Derek in To the Lighthouse ("You lost a child. Sarah almost lost her child."). There must be more to it.

Try this on for size... Jesse is pregnant.

In Alpine Fields, we got the story of Derek and Jesse first meeting in the future along with a present-day story about an unborn baby being a Skynet target. Coincidence? Not bloody likely.

We're in a bizarro timeline now where John isn't mankind's savior, so we might as well twist the present day story too, right? Derek having jumped back in time to kill his friend is a good counter to Kyle having jumped back to save the woman he loved. Now Sarah has lost John and Jesse is pregnant. I guess the miscarriage story was just a way to introduce the idea of Jesse and Derek having a baby. And she gets a second chance to do that. That's going to be one messed up kid, though ;)

I'll assume Jesse and Derek's baby would grow up to be important in the resistance, so Skynet will come calling. If present-day Skynet stuff is now being done through Kaliba, then I guess Sarah will end up finding Jesse just by being on Kaliba's trail. And she'll save her because that's what Sarah does.



Comments

( 30 comments — Add a comment )
the_narration
Dec. 8th, 2009 09:09 am (UTC)
Hmmm... interesting. It's not an unreasonable theory. Derek and Jesse were having a fair bit of the sex, and might well have been highly ignorant of contraception given that there was probably none available in the post-apocalyptic future.

It would give Sarah someone new to protect once John was lost in the future.

And there's definitely reasons to think that Jesse might be alive. It was a shot at a significant distance with a pistol, made by a person in the sort of highly-stressed state that turns firearm accuracy to shit. It wouldn't be surprising if it had missed.

Not to mention that if Derek had killed her, then he would now have a corpse on his hands. You can't just leave boddies lying around parking garages without people noticing. He would either have to take time to dispose of it (rather than being able to go up to the room to talk to John, unless there was more time in between those scenes than I thought) or leave it where it lay (in which case he'd have to get out of there promptly, before it was found and his odds of either being caught or of evidence pointing to him being left increase exponentially, in which case he probably wouldn't take the time to go talk to John... and his claim that he spared her would be seen through rather quickly).

The miscarriage tidbit they shoehorned into her story at the last minute didn't make any sense at all. In fact, I thought it weakened the character considerably. Instead of being a dedicated soldier trying to fix her commander, she became a chick with a personal grudge.
Agreed. The "doing to avenge her baby" thing was such a cliched reveal. But while it would be nice to think that they were just setting us up for another twist later on, one should never discount the possibility of a writer just being that lazy.
roxybisquaint
Dec. 10th, 2009 06:37 am (UTC)
It's not an unreasonable theory.

Hey, even I can come up with sane theories sometimes ;)


It would give Sarah someone new to protect once John was lost in the future.

Sarah would still be pissed the fuck off at Jesse, but if she's carrying Derek's baby — John's cousin, then it makes her family. So I could definitely see Sarah wanting to protect Jesse and keep her close instead of just saving her ass once and sending her on her way. I'm thinking the next season would be all about Sarah saving the kids — Danny Dyson, Savannah Weaver and the gestating Jesse baby. That seems like a fitting torment for a Sarah who's just lost her son. Heh.

With Ellison's paternal issues, I guess he plays into that kind of story line too. But I still hate him, so I hope he just dies instead. Actually, a more fitting story for him is to get arrested, tell the whole story to the FBI and they lock him up in Pescadero with Silberman :D


And there's definitely reasons to think that Jesse might be alive. It was a shot at a significant distance with a pistol, made by a person in the sort of highly-stressed state that turns firearm accuracy to shit.

I don't think he missed, I think he didn't pull the trigger. We didn't see a full pull, just a partial click in a close-up that felt like an intentional contrast to Sarah's trigger pull on Winston.


Agreed. The "doing to avenge her baby" thing was such a cliched reveal. But while it would be nice to think that they were just setting us up for another twist later on, one should never discount the possibility of a writer just being that lazy.

Today is the Day was originally only a single episode, but the script ran long, they loved it and they had that cool set. So they decided to expand it to a second ep rather than cut it back. I suppose desperation to fill the minutes could've resulted in miscarriage! I like to give them the benefit of the doubt, though, and I feel like Jesse still being alive and pregnant validates the miscarriage thing.
indiefic
Dec. 8th, 2009 02:34 pm (UTC)
I really, really want Derek to have killed Jesse.

Really.

But that said, this would be one of the few twists that could actually give any purpose to Jesse at all. And considering that every freakin' time we saw Jesse and Derek together they had to remind us again and again and again that they were doing the deed a pregnancy definitely isn't out of the question.

But mostly I just want her to be dead.
roxybisquaint
Dec. 10th, 2009 05:24 am (UTC)
I feel your pain. I really, really want to erase Jesse's entire existence. She totally ruined Derek. When John finally jumps back... to a point before Derek got killed, all will be well ;)
sabaceanbabe
Dec. 8th, 2009 04:00 pm (UTC)
I'm on board with this theory.
roxybisquaint
Dec. 10th, 2009 05:24 am (UTC)
Awesome :)
adam_0oo
Dec. 8th, 2009 04:02 pm (UTC)
Image Source,Photobucket Uploader Firefox Extension
gega_cai
Dec. 8th, 2009 05:19 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I don't think Derek killed her even when that episode aired.

The idea of her being pregnant is very interesting to think about.
roxybisquaint
Dec. 10th, 2009 05:28 am (UTC)
I didn't think he killed her either because the close up on his half *click* of a trigger pull was such a contrast to the close up on the full *BLAM* of a trigger pull we got when Sarah shot Winston. And why keep it a mystery if Jesse's just dead?

I think Jesse being pregnant with Derek's baby gives is a good reason to still be alive in the story.
trystanknight
Dec. 8th, 2009 06:12 pm (UTC)
Good thoery! I might use this in my TSCC rpg again. (Speaking of which, when that's done I should write up what happened for you).

I do have to disagree with the baby weakining her character. I think, when watching the show as a whole, it becomes aparrent that Josh thought Jesse was insane (he's already said insanity is a favorite theme of his, and following Sarahs road is about following her even though she's a little less than sane). That being said, most people have a precipitating event- for Sarah it was the loss of Kyle and the horror of coming nuclear apocalypse, for Jesse it was that.

Jessie doesn't work as JUST a loyal soldier- she hated machines with a zeal and passion that was personal. I can understandwanting to separate John from the
machine, but doing so with such Zeal and Need meant something else was up. A normal soldier wouldn't have taken this to the extreme she was.

Just my opinion.
roxybisquaint
Dec. 10th, 2009 05:41 am (UTC)
when that's done I should write up what happened for you

Yes please. Sound like fun!

Jessie doesn't work as JUST a loyal soldier- she hated machines with a zeal and passion that was personal.

Agreed, but I think the sub story gave her plenty of reason to want to prevent John from trusting Cameron without having to add the miscarriage onto it. From her standpoint, John Connor had greater respect for the metal than the humans.
tackdriver56
Dec. 9th, 2009 09:30 pm (UTC)
"Derek, you don't know what they took from us".
If Jesse is pregnant, she didn't know it yet in the parking garage. It's an interesting thread to weave into the future. I do think she's still alive, because when I replayed the scene, I heard a striker fall on an empty chamber. "Click". Of course it could be played either way, but I like the way you're thinking.

I think Jesse's motivation is from her frustration at being a mushroom under the command of metal, more than from the miscarriage, which was most likely caused by the beating she received from her human crew mates.

What a pregnant Jesse would do in the "present", with only Sarah, James, and Savanah remaining is hard to say. I surely don't see her going over to Kaliba.
roxybisquaint
Dec. 10th, 2009 06:10 am (UTC)
If Jesse is pregnant, she didn't know it yet in the parking garage.

No, she definitely wouldn't have known she was pregnant at that point. I don't think she finds out she's pregnant until a month or two later.

I think Jesse's motivation is from her frustration at being a mushroom under the command of metal, more than from the miscarriage

She didn't seem to have any problem with a metal commander because she understood that Queeg had skills that humans couldn't match. Where I think she really had the problem was in feeling that the metal was actually being regarded as more trustworthy and more important than humans (because of the secret mission). Maybe Jesse would've been able to move past the loss of fellow soldiers and all the other problems on the sub. But when she couldn't even get past Cameron to deliver the message to John, I think it pushed her over the edge.

At that point, I didn't see any need for the miscarriage bit. She had a strong enough motivation for jumping back in a lame-ass attempt (yes, I'm still bitter) to alter John Connor. And she was also sufficiently sympathetic. It's been nagging at me ever since! So I came up with this ;)

What a pregnant Jesse would do in the "present", with only Sarah, James, and Savanah remaining is hard to say. I surely don't see her going over to Kaliba.

Nah, I do think Jesse and Sarah would intersect but it wouldn't be cause Jesse was with Kaliba, it would be because Jesse was a target. Jesse being pregnant wouldn't be very interesting if there wasn't some significance to the child. It would be too young to be the future leader of the resistance (unless j-day got way delayed), but it could be important in some way. So Skynet (via Kaliba) wants her dead to prevent the child's birth. And since Sarah is hunting Kaliba at the same time, she runs into pregnant!Jesse.

Edited at 2009-12-10 06:11 am (UTC)
fig_aruna
Dec. 10th, 2009 05:21 am (UTC)
AGHHH! Babies, babies, babies! There are really so many babies and kids in SCC! Sydney, Kacey's kid, Baby!Turtle John, Savannah, John Henry, Book Report Bedell... Helluva lot of childrearing that's supposed to be happening. Adding a Jesse/Derek kid just might destroy what's left of poor Sarah's sanity! o_O
fig_aruna
Dec. 10th, 2009 05:24 am (UTC)
also,
The miscarriage tidbit they shoehorned into her story at the last minute didn't make any sense at all. In fact, I thought it weakened the character considerably. Instead of being a dedicated soldier trying to fix her commander, she became a chick with a personal grudge.

A thousand times yes. I hated that reveal. Ugh ugh UGH!
roxybisquaint
Dec. 10th, 2009 06:55 am (UTC)
Re: also,
<--- I believe that was my reaction to it at the time.

Things aren't always as they seem, though. I hated when John told Jesse that he was onto Riley for a long time because I simply couldn't see any evidence of it. After stewing about it for a while, I finally decided he was bluffing about that to fuck with Jesse. And it worked so well once I looked at it that way, that I really think that's what it was supposed to be. Our show is very clever like that :)

Edited at 2009-12-10 06:58 am (UTC)
fig_aruna
Dec. 11th, 2009 04:12 am (UTC)
Re: also,
Yeah, my reaction was pretty much like that, except maybe mixed with a little near violence. LOL.


I hated when John told Jesse that he was onto Riley for a long time because I simply couldn't see any evidence of it. After stewing about it for a while, I finally decided he was bluffing about that to fuck with Jesse. And it worked so well once I looked at it that way, that I really think that's what it was supposed to be. Our show is very clever like that :)

Huh! I LIKE IT! *pets show* You amazing, fantastic, genius show, you!
roxybisquaint
Dec. 10th, 2009 06:45 am (UTC)
Yeah, I was wracking my brain, trying to figure out what was up with all the baby stuff in season 2. I mean Skynet is being born and John is growing up, but the baby references were over top. I kept worrying Sarah was going to end up pregnant somehow! We ended the season with Sarah losing her son, so picking up with a new baby on its way in the family (Derek's child would be John's cousin) maybe brings some reason to it all.

It would certainly torment Sarah to have to protect Jesse, especially after John's departure. But our show does love to torture the girl ;)
tackdriver56
Dec. 10th, 2009 05:49 pm (UTC)
Phssssssht. "John I am your brother."
This would be if Sarah was pregnant by either Charlie OR Derek (thank you CJ).

I can almost see the pregnant mommies Sarah AND Jesse running (waddling?) around with the big guns. ;-)

It's harder to see how either baby scenario would result in the kid being a target, without it being some kind of immunity thing like Syndey Fields, because the kid would be younger than Alison Young.

Uh... No. No!
The infiltrators have been getting smaller and cuter, right?
Scenario: baby is taken and copied onto an infiltrator chassis. Infiltrator is "rescued", and taken to the inner sanctum by distraught humans, where it goes on a rampage, and kills several humans before Sarah takes it out.

Say it isn't so...
fig_aruna
Dec. 11th, 2009 04:09 am (UTC)
Re: Phssssssht. "John I am your brother."
I can almost see the pregnant mommies Sarah AND Jesse running (waddling?) around with the big guns. ;-)

Awesome. My monitor is now covered in Dr. Pepper.

ROFL/CRIES
roxybisquaint
Dec. 11th, 2009 07:46 pm (UTC)
Re: Phssssssht. "John I am your brother."
It's harder to see how either baby scenario would result in the kid being a target, without it being some kind of immunity thing like Syndey Fields, because the kid would be younger than Alison Young.

Okay, first of all, Sarah is NOT PREGNANT! Heh. But Jesse's kid could be important. It could be something happenstance or it could be that he/she would be important years after 2027. We have no end point to the war so for the purposes of being a target, we only need to know that the kid will one day be trouble for Skynet.


The infiltrators have been getting smaller and cuter, right?
Scenario: baby is taken and copied onto an infiltrator chassis.


LOL. Terminator baby!!!!!!!!!
fig_aruna
Dec. 11th, 2009 04:14 am (UTC)
But our show does love to torture the girl ;)

*refers to your icon*

I think that was already heartbreaking/maddening/insanity-worsening enough for Sarah. (Damn the writers for not giving us Sarah/Derek! *is totally immature* ;))
intrepid01
Dec. 10th, 2009 10:31 pm (UTC)
Hi Roxy, I hope you don't mind me dropping in uninvited like this, but I was recently discussing this very topic in the Blue wiki.

A augment for Jesse being alive comes from Derek's comments to John after we see Jesse for the last time.
John asked Derek if he killed her, and he replied, “John Connor said to let her go.”
I always found Derek talking to John in the third party strange, until you realise that all through the first half of the season, Derek was concerned John was acting more like a Baum than a Connor.
These two episode's was John's coming of age, where he steps up an does act like a Connor, and I think Derek was acknowledging this with his comments and (maybe) not killing Jesse.

Jesse's baby is the motivation for everything she does; We as an audience quickly forget that we are dealing with time travel and what we can change, and our characters motivation for changing it.
For you and me, our reality is shaped by our past and present, and trying to prevent JD would be ample motivation.
But Jesse has already lived through JD, for her that's history, in the past, but maybe the best thing that happened to her was getting pregnant, meeting Derek; That's her reality, the thing that drives her to do the things she does.
If she keeps Cameron from John, she doesn't get sent on the mission and loose her baby, she doesn't need to change time, she doesn't need to sacrifice Riley; all her sins and sacrificing are forgiven.

With time travel, the ends do justify the means!
roxybisquaint
Dec. 10th, 2009 11:18 pm (UTC)
A augment for Jesse being alive comes from Derek's comments to John after we see Jesse for the last time.
John asked Derek if he killed her, and he replied, “John Connor said to let her go.”


I don't count that as evidence of anything because he also said (to Jesse): "John Connor said to let you go... I'm not John Connor." That's why I just let the non-trigger pull be the deciding factor.

If she keeps Cameron from John, she doesn't get sent on the mission and loose her baby, she doesn't need to change time, she doesn't need to sacrifice Riley; all her sins and sacrificing are forgiven.

Oh hey, I like your line of thinking! I never looked at Jesse's motivation that way. I was too focused on her overall devastation about the sub, crew, box 'o liquid metal and, yes, miscarriage and all being rooted in John putting too much faith in the metal. But being able to undo the things she felt she had to do to accomplish that is a very interesting take on it.

I'm not sure I can give Jesse that much credit, though. I never saw an ounce of compassion or remorse in the woman in present day. Nothing she did would ever be erased in the timeline she was living anyway. All she could do was create a future from that point forward in which John Connor doesn't rely on metal, young Jesse and Derek might one day get together and have a baby and the resistance might win the war. But Riley and Moisha? They'd still be dead.

Derek and Jesse were two of a kind with their ends justifying their means. And I think they were both wrong.


I hope you don't mind me dropping in uninvited like this, but I was recently discussing this very topic in the Blue wiki.

No invite needed. I'm happy to have your input :)

I heard something about the wiki splitting into 3 wikis. I don't know where any of them are except the original, though. Where's the blue one?
intrepid01
Dec. 11th, 2009 01:08 am (UTC)
The difference is how he uses the phrase, “John Connor said to let you go,” to Jesse he's making a statement, then a fact, it means exactly what it's supposed to mean.
But when he makes it to John it's coloured by it's strangeness; Instead of saying, “You said to let her go,” he says, “John Connor said to let her go.”
He is validating, to himself and to John, that John had graduated from the Baum period of his life to the future leader, John Connor.
For John to become “John Connor,” future leader of humanity, Derek has to accept his decisions and obey his orders/instructions.
Like I said, Derek was concerned that John was too much Baum and was taking too long to step into his fated role; If we are to accept his realisation that John had finely grown into his destiny, disobeying him and killing Jesse would totally undermine that development.
I find that more telling and interesting than a non-trigger pull, but you can view the non-trigger pull as a underscore for that moment of realization.

Derek and Jesse are two peas in a pod, both are essentially good people, but they are also products of their experiences growing up, which by our standards was awful.

What is there to live for in the future hell hole they were living?

They are both emotionally hardened by that experience, where life is cheap, but I think they have narrowed their focus to their jobs and more importantly, to their family.
Derek wasn't fighting to prevent JD for the good of mankind, he's doing it for Kyle; After Kyle was gone, the future Derek lost focus and almost commuted suicide until he was found by Jesse.
For Jesse, Derek is her world; After her last mission, she lost all of him, his baby, and him because he was sent back in time.
Each will kill whoever they have to, to achieve their respective goal, and in that they are no different than each other.

The Blue Wiki is here, http://tsccwiki.wetpaint.com/thread
It's the same as the old wiki but more tolerant of off topic subjects and bad language.
roxybisquaint
Dec. 11th, 2009 08:53 am (UTC)
He is validating, to himself and to John, that John had graduated from the Baum period of his life to the future leader, John Connor.
For John to become “John Connor,” future leader of humanity, Derek has to accept his decisions and obey his orders/instructions.

Like I said, Derek was concerned that John was too much Baum and was taking too long to step into his fated role; If we are to accept his realisation that John had finely grown into his destiny, disobeying him and killing Jesse would totally undermine that development.


I completely disagree with that first part. There's no magical moment where you go from confused teen to mature adult and John Connor is no exception to that. Yes, Derek was getting frustrated all season because he couldn't believe this was the kid that was eventually going to be the leader he knew. He couldn't see it in him. And after the Jesse thing, he could. That doesn't make John suddenly his commander or someone he's going to be reporting to and taking orders from (this John is still a 17 year old with maturing to do), but it changed how Derek looked at John.



I find that more telling and interesting than a non-trigger pull, but you can view the non-trigger pull as a underscore for that moment of realization.

I still don't think what he said to Jesse was any less significant. I believe Derek fully intended to kill Jesse, but in the moment when he was going to pull the trigger, he just couldn't do it.



For Jesse, Derek is her world; After her last mission, she lost all of him, his baby, and him because he was sent back in time.

The reason I'm not so willing to accept the love and baby motivation for Jesse is because she was so sketchy all season. Yeah, we know she and Derek had a relationship and I believed he really loved her. But whether she really loved him or it was all part of the game, I was never sure. By the time we get to the heart of her story, we're also at the end of her story and it's too late for me to care (especially after that weak plot she had). But if she's pregnant with Derek's baby, it'll mean more going forward.
tackdriver56
Dec. 14th, 2009 03:09 am (UTC)
Jesse
we know she and Derek had a relationship and I believed he really loved her. But whether she really loved him or it was all part of the game, I was never sure.

Despite the obvious desirability of Stephanie Jacobsen, Jesse struck me as up to no good from the moment she realized Derek was chasing her and added speed. She didn't seem happy to see him at all, and "teh sex" was her way of making sure his BIG head didn't have enough blood to think with.

It seemed to take a lot to convince her that Derek was not *her* Derek, like she didn't want to know. I'd have thought she'd be happy to see him, but maybe she'd decided that it was Derek's caution against trusting Queeg that cost her the baby. Having said that, she's still *acting* on the premise that metal cannot be trusted, that John cannot be allowed to trust Cameron.

(Head bursts. Slumps on keyboarddddddddddddddd).
(JK. Sweet dreams).
phantomwriter05
Dec. 11th, 2009 01:27 am (UTC)
Well Roxy

you always have a way of complicating the simple

foging up the clear

and tribulizing the momentus ...

you ever thought of running for senate?

;)
roxybisquaint
Dec. 11th, 2009 06:24 am (UTC)
What fun would simple and clear be? I like to dig deep and get dirty :D
intrepid01
Dec. 11th, 2009 01:03 pm (UTC)
But there 'was' a magical moment, it was in the vehicle when John asked Derek how long he would last unarmed with Cameron if she really wanted to kill him, and then he says...

“I want to talk about something.”
“All right'”
“I want to talk to you about the future.”
“Yours?”
“Yours.”

My take, is on what we didn't see about that conversation, on what was said next; Oh to be a fly on the wall!

Up till then, in Derek's eyes, John is Baum, clueless to what is really going down, trying to avoid his future and not even that interested in it.
Derek also thinks his tryst with Jesse is still a secret, and then John lays it all out to him, everything that's happened and been happening right under Derek's nose, right under Sarah's nose, right under Cameron's nose, all the dirty little secrets laid bare, and it was only John who figured it all out, who new what was “really” going on, and it was everyone else who was clueless.

John was playing the game, and playing it so very very well, and it was Derek who had dropped the ball.

What an eye opening, and humiliating talk that must have been for Derek! He was (finally) in the presence of “John Connor,” the master tactician, the person who will eventually lead mankind.
John was now calling the shots, dictating how this sorry affair was now going to play out, yet a boy he had suddenly transitioned and Derek was left to follow in his wake.
I don't think Derek would all of a sudden start taking orders from John because John has much to learn still, but in this, he wouldn't dare cross him.

Jesse's and Riley's characters were poorly handled I think, it's hard in retrospect to fully appreciate them until they were gone, and much was lost in the story because of that, but it was a production decision and we shouldn't blame the characters for it.
( 30 comments — Add a comment )

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roxybisquaint
Roxy Bisquaint

Roxy Bisquaint...

Is self-indulgent. Over thinks everything. Tweets too much. Looks really good in these jeans. Wants to eat butterscotch. Makes herself laugh. Obsesses about aging. Does some crunches. Lives with two ghosts. Procrastinates daily. Measures once, cuts twice. Hates Foo Fighters. Drinks lots of coffee (keep it coming). Puts spiders outside. Brings balance to the force. Draws a perfect curve. Enjoys dark chocolate. Bangs on the drums. Always gets in the slow line. Orders from a menu. Hopes to be reincarnated. Speaks fluent Sarah Connor. Cooks tasty crack theory. Loves a good storm. Dances like a dork. Picks some locks. Tips well. Refuses to share the popcorn. Dreams about the future. Ignores the clock. Sings off key. Has a superpower. Shoots the paper bad guys. Needs some eyeliner. Goes to bed at dawn. Can't resist good smut. Quotes movie lines. Eats whipped yogurt. Lets the story tell itself. Maintains a rich fantasy life. Knows all the mysteries of the gods and of the universe.

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