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How I can still catch something in an episode of TSCC that I never caught before is crazy, but it happened again.

I was watching Born to Run tonight and picked up on some actual evidence to support the theory that John Henry did not jump to the future: After Cameron and John Henry exchange their little "hello" greetings and he asks her if she'll join them, Cameron whips out her knife and closes the door. The door fills the screen and you don't get a visual of the full closure, but you do get the sound of it latching. So we know it's closed all the way. When John and the others arrive, however, the door to John Henry's room is open. It's not wide open, but it's open enough to show that Cameron's closing of it was not that last time that door was touched.

We've got motive: save Savannah, confront brother AI. We've got no pile of clothes on the floor or any other disruption to the room that might indicate a time jump. And we've got an open door. This juror has finally reached a verdict: John Henry is definitely still in 2009.



Comments

( 64 comments — Add a comment )
deslea
Nov. 22nd, 2010 11:12 am (UTC)
Eeep! *brain collapses from the new possibilities*
roxybisquaint
Nov. 22nd, 2010 06:44 pm (UTC)
hehehe.
schmacky0
Nov. 22nd, 2010 11:17 am (UTC)
You're damn right he is!

Seriously, even if the writers didn't initially intend for him to still be in 2009, I think even they would change their minds. Really, it all points to him not jumping.
roxybisquaint
Nov. 22nd, 2010 06:43 pm (UTC)
Maybe they didn't even know which way they were going to take it because they certainly left it ambiguous enough to go either way. Since we think John Henry not jumping makes the most sense, I like that there's actually some evidence to support it.
kaotic619
Nov. 22nd, 2010 11:33 am (UTC)
Well, it could make for one hell of a Jameron reunion.

If Cameron is active for almost 20 years without the very person she cares the most about... I mean, John is everything to her, so being without him for so long, that would indeed be very sad. It could even help Cameron understand her *emotions* since she might be around Sarah. Cameron very well could end up becoming more human like after all those years.

To clarify about what I said on twitter. I don't have a problem with the idea/theory, I just don't see the what you're talking about as evidence. The set guys always do things that are strange - look at when John and Sarah are running from Cameron and they're just laughing. Or Cromartie's head going through time, etc... But like I said to you Roxy, I'm done being a nuisance about this. If this is the theory you want to go with, there's no reason I should rain on your parade.
kaotic619
Nov. 22nd, 2010 11:42 am (UTC)
I might actually work on some ideas for that and put them into a short fanfic.
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datan0de
Nov. 22nd, 2010 12:35 pm (UTC)
It could just be a continuity error, but what a serendipitous one! That would make for either a huge plot twist or a further reason to continue following what's happening in 2009 even though John is up in the future.

All of this makes three things clear to me:
1) You'd make a great creative consultant for season three.
2) There really needs to be a season three.
3) I'm a complete idiot for never noticing the conspicuous absence of a pile of clothes!

Good observations on your part. Bravo.
(Anonymous)
Nov. 22nd, 2010 01:01 pm (UTC)
I don't have an LJ account anymore, but I'm Morded. I always thought the missing clothes was a continuity error. That kind of stuff happens so often in TV shows, scc included. I wouldn't jump to conclusions or anything about that. We do however have a Catherine Weaver telling us where John Henry is and from what I could tell, she was going to go there whether John went or not. She seemed to know for a fact that he went to the future. I would bet John Henry and Weaver had it planned from the moment he was hacked.
I do agree with kaotic, though. It would be a heart breaking story for Cameron.
(no subject) - roxybisquaint - Nov. 22nd, 2010 07:41 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - roxybisquaint - Nov. 22nd, 2010 07:22 pm (UTC) - Expand
valhallalilly
Nov. 22nd, 2010 01:52 pm (UTC)
And this is why when the show comes back they need to hire you as consultant.

I love this theory.
roxybisquaint
Nov. 22nd, 2010 07:48 pm (UTC)
And this is why when the show comes back they need to hire you as consultant.

I don't know about that. It would require that I think about the show a lot and you know how much I hate to do that :P


I love this theory.

The theory that John Henry didn't jump seems to have gained a lot of ground in the past year or so, but it's awesome to finally be able to point to something on screen that makes it totally plausible.
xdeedx
Nov. 22nd, 2010 04:14 pm (UTC)
So this is what the tscc fandom has come to? Finding the smallest continuity errors like missing clothes or doors that aren't fully shut. You do realize that these people are human, and they do make mistakes. I'm actually glad I stop watching this show, if all I had to look forward to is lookig for the smallest details so I could come up with some crazy crackpot theory then I would have to quit the fandom and move on.

The show laid everything out for you people.
Cameron went to John Henry.
John Henry took her chip.
John Henry or Cameron depending on who is in control of the body went to the future.
John finds Cameron. Basically cries his heart out.
He can't take it so he follows the t1000 to the future. Why are we supposed to believe they're all in the future? Because a main character tells us.
Writers do not say one thing, but do something completely different. They try to keep things simple so the dumb people can understand and follow. Also it would also mean that the entire scene is meaningless and the writers don't make meaningless scenes.

Here I thought shippers were bad. It's the people that look for the smallest thing to theorize about.
kaotic619
Nov. 22nd, 2010 04:50 pm (UTC)
Goddamn dude, there's not reason to be a fucking ass clown. You might not give a shit about the show or what happened in it anymore, but some people do.

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(Anonymous)
Nov. 22nd, 2010 09:01 pm (UTC)
I really have to disagree with this. I think it's reaching quite a bit, sorry.

You're looking at the small things: no clothes on the floor and the door open. I see the bigger things: John Henry needs to see the future as much as John does: it's part of his development. John needs to see why it has to be him who leads the resistance, by seeing a messed up (more than normal) future, where mankind is most likely losing. And John Henry needs to see what the world will be like if his brother gets its way.

That's a part of his development, since he's been built to fight Skynet but he needs a reason to fight it, since he's rather a peaceful and gentle AI right now. If he remains in the past then he can't experience firsthand the ruined world his brother creates.
kaotic619
Nov. 22nd, 2010 09:52 pm (UTC)
Agreed. The bigger stuff is also what I'm looking at. Doors and clothes aren't enough for me. It's what John and John Henry can learn from the future.
(no subject) - roxybisquaint - Nov. 22nd, 2010 11:15 pm (UTC) - Expand
cinebo
Nov. 22nd, 2010 09:36 pm (UTC)
haha whoa. that's pretty interesting lol. And I agree with Schmacky. it's very subtle but still a lot to think about, and like you said, you JUST noticed this. and this is you we're talking about =P - even if the writers didn't specifically plan it that way it seems like fairly solid evidence.

the idea of what would happen in a 3rd season just got wayyyyyy deeper =)
roxybisquaint
Nov. 22nd, 2010 11:18 pm (UTC)
It certainly opens the door to the idea that John Henry walked out of that room instead of time jumping out of it ;)

This has been a favored theory for me since not long after the series ended, so it's really nice to find something on screen that makes it possible to be more than just a wacky theory.
(Deleted comment)
roxybisquaint
Nov. 23rd, 2010 09:52 am (UTC)
In my view of it, Weaver wouldn't need to overlook anything. I think John Henry tricked her — messed with her convenient TDE to make it look like it had been used. She'd be wrong that he jumped, but her conclusion would still be reasonable based on the empirical evidence.

The open door could be a gaff or it could be an intentional clue. Since I think it makes more sense for John Henry to have stayed in 2009, I believe it was a clue.


Oh man, just when I thought I was done thinking about this, I came up with a twisty new spin on it that makes it all a plot by Weaver. This is going to require it's own post. It's wacky. Maybe even cracky. But oh so fun :D
(no subject) - roxybisquaint - Nov. 23rd, 2010 08:36 pm (UTC) - Expand
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Another thought on Kaliba/Weaver - the_narration - Nov. 28th, 2010 04:17 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Another thought on Kaliba/Weaver - roxybisquaint - Nov. 29th, 2010 08:57 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Another thought on Kaliba/Weaver - the_narration - Dec. 2nd, 2010 05:49 am (UTC) - Expand
phantomwriter05
Nov. 23rd, 2010 05:30 am (UTC)
I think that it's an interesting theory and I could jump on board with it ... but what's the end game of it?

I don't see Cameron willingly helping the Weavers set a trap for John ...

one of these days I would love to get all of your theories together and go all Batman and connect the dots on all of these little things you picked up on and come up with one large theory.

we're going to Nancy Screw the TSCC writers when the movie goes into script writing faze.

LOL!!
roxybisquaint
Nov. 23rd, 2010 09:02 am (UTC)
but what's the end game of it?

I... don't know yet :P

Well, I think John Henry's end game is to protect Savannah and stop his "brother". Weaver gave him the damaged chip from the water cooler terminator and wanted him to try to get some date from it. I figure Joh Henry did get some info from that chip and it made him aware of Kaliba's plans (which involved killing Savannah and destroying or taking over John Henry and then probably infiltrating military computer systems & igniting a nuclear war).

John Henry wanted to protect Savannah and stop his brother, but I think he knew Weaver would try to stop him from risking himself for Savannah if she knew. So he tricked her into thinking he'd jumped to the future, so he'd be free to carry out his plan in the present.

How Cameron fits into all that, I'm not quite sure. It might simply be that JH explained it all to Camero (or at least the part about Kaliba wanting to blow up the world) ad she agreed to help by lending him her chip. Stopping Skynet (Kaliba) would protect John, so it falls in line with her own mission.

I don't think they set a trap for John, but I'm back and forth on whether Cameron intended for John to jump to the future. If she did intend for that to happen, I think her reason would be the same reason Sarah stepped back and didn't try to stop him from going: If Skynet is stopped and j-day is averted, John would land in a normal future, safe from being hunted by machines, saved from his fate.


one of these days I would love to get all of your theories together and go all Batman and connect the dots on all of these little things you picked up on and come up with one large theory.

I do hope to do that one day. I kind of keep them all tucked away in my head and little by little, it's becoming a storyline. My biggest stumbling block is always Cameron (who sent her and why?). I usually settle on Cameron having sent herself back, but I think I'd rather it be that Sarah sent her back. That would be an unexpected twist to the whole thing. I can't quite make that work, though ;)
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tackdriver56
Nov. 23rd, 2010 01:59 pm (UTC)
Nice catch...
The big question about where and when John Henry is, remains open. With that comes a plethora of possibilities: does Weaver know? Where's Cameron's program? Are Weaver/JH/Cam aiding the humans, or did Weaver just shuffle John Connor out of the way of her own ambitions, while keeping him in reserve in case he's needed?
roxybisquaint
Nov. 24th, 2010 09:00 am (UTC)
Re: Nice catch...
Oh God. So may unanswered questions and no matter how much I speculate and theorize I inevitably run into a wall somewhere. The problem is we need to know what information the characters had and how they were acting upon it. We have certainty of neither, so theory builds from speculation. Our ideas are built like a crackhouse of cards!


The big question about where and when John Henry is, remains open. With that comes a plethora of possibilities: does Weaver know? Where's Cameron's program? Are Weaver/JH/Cam aiding the humans, or did Weaver just shuffle John Connor out of the way of her own ambitions, while keeping him in reserve in case he's needed?

I think John henry is in present day and I don't think Weaver knows that. I think she really does think he jumped to the future. I go back and forth about Cameron's program, but my latest lean is towards her being on The Turk.

It would certainly be an interesting twist if Weaver had played John in order to jump him over his importance and I considered that very idea in my reply to Lifeonqueen up the page a bit. I haven't been able to make that idea work yet. I'm not even sure if I'd be inclined to embrace it if I could, but I'm contemplating it for the fun of it. That's how theory starts and sometimes it ends up sticking quite well.
Re: Nice catch... - tackdriver56 - Nov. 24th, 2010 01:33 pm (UTC) - Expand
the_narration
Nov. 23rd, 2010 09:28 pm (UTC)
Well, you know that I've always been a fan of the idea of John Henry staying in the present. As I've often said, it just doesn't make any sense for him to go into the future: he has a far better chance of taking out Kaliba now than in the future when it will have grown in processing power by a factor of 4,096 (following Moore's Law) and command an army of killing machines.

The door may or may not be a clue. The clothes not being left behind I honestly have never really considered a clue... I always figured that clothes were disintegrated in transit. The fact the room wasn't destroyed like it was after John and Weaver jumped out (if I'm remembering that right), on the other hand, is kind of a massive clue. To the point that I rather wonder how John and Sarah failed to notice it and call bullshit on Weaver's claim that he'd jumped... although I guess they've never seen the aftermath of a jump before.

I also kind of have to wonder whether Weaver actually thought that John Henry had jumped or if she just wanted John to think that to suit her own agenda. She might share a common enemy with the Connors, but she's proved more than willing to lie....
kaotic619
Nov. 23rd, 2010 11:13 pm (UTC)
Of course they'd take Kaliba out in the present. But they don't know where the AI is. No one does except for probably only a few people. As I said above, the machines wouldn't know either. John Henry went to the future expecting to find a older John Connor. That means help and a way back to defeat his brother. We know from the show that Sarah couldn't stop the AI from starting J-day, thus, she probably couldn't find it to destroy it. The best place to look is where it is known to be. The Future.

Wait, the room couldn't have been destroyed when they jumped because it would have killed Sarah and Ellison too. If damage like that happens when someone jumps then they'd be building time machines all the time to send people back. The damage only happens when the traveler arrives at their destination. Weaver was going to jump whether John was there or not... there was no conspiracy involving John Connor right then.
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intrepid01
Nov. 24th, 2010 04:09 am (UTC)
I think it was a continuity error, or I should say “another one;” but it “is” wood for the fire of your theory.

I could never understand the justification for JH going to the future where he is clearly at a disadvantage because both sides, Skynet and the resistance would both see him as an enemy, and at that time both are heavily armed and dangerous.

So while I support the idea that he did jump, common sense would dictate he didn’t.
I could go both ways!

….I could go both ways on the theory is what I meant! ;)
roxybisquaint
Nov. 24th, 2010 08:50 am (UTC)
I could go both ways on the theory is what I meant! ;)

LOL


I think it was a continuity error, or I should say “another one;” but it “is” wood for the fire of your theory.

The show certainly has it's share of continuity errors, though, so I can't rule that out. But yes, regardless of whether it was intentional or not, it provides a basis for the theory that John Henry did not jump. Since I've been on that theory for well over a year, I'm delighted to have something to point to on screen that can support it :)


I could never understand the justification for JH going to the future where he is clearly at a disadvantage because both sides, Skynet and the resistance would both see him as an enemy, and at that time both are heavily armed and dangerous.

Yeah exactly. they could go either way with it, obviously, but the reason I'd embraced this idea in the first place was because I think it makes more sense for JH to stay in the future. Assuming he's going after Kaliba, he's got a much better chance at defeating it now than later.

We don't exactly know his motives and we have no idea what was said between him and Cameron in that room, but when I follow the events of those last few episodes, it leads me to the conclusion that JH wanted to stop his brother and he wanted to do it to protect himself and protect Savannah.
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trystanknight
Dec. 4th, 2010 10:16 pm (UTC)
My thoughts...
I meant to comment when I first saw this and I didn't because I suck -

I'm not sure John Henry jumped either, but not for the same reasons, and I can't believe nobody else has brought this up (that I've seen) - I see no reason why Mansonbot (Weaver) couldn't have just flat out lied her ass off.

She's been duplicitous from the start, and while she hasn't established herself as an out and out liar, I see no reason in her character why the hell she wouldn't lie to get John right where she wanted him. I think she wanted John to see the future, to know what is coming, to overwhelm him and teach him a lesson that Machines and Humans have to work together, but more on her terms, since humans are clinically insane.

I think John Henry is off doing something else, and she's out to get John to work for her, instead of vice versa as proposed on the Submarine.

Anyway that's my two cents, it's probably silly, but there it is. Oh and I think time machines *vape* inorganic material, they don't leave it behind, so the clothes wouldn't be necessarily a clue. But that's just my opinion.
( 64 comments — Add a comment )

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Roxy Bisquaint

Roxy Bisquaint...

Is self-indulgent. Over thinks everything. Tweets too much. Looks really good in these jeans. Wants to eat butterscotch. Makes herself laugh. Obsesses about aging. Does some crunches. Lives with two ghosts. Procrastinates daily. Measures once, cuts twice. Hates Foo Fighters. Drinks lots of coffee (keep it coming). Puts spiders outside. Brings balance to the force. Draws a perfect curve. Enjoys dark chocolate. Bangs on the drums. Always gets in the slow line. Orders from a menu. Hopes to be reincarnated. Speaks fluent Sarah Connor. Cooks tasty crack theory. Loves a good storm. Dances like a dork. Picks some locks. Tips well. Refuses to share the popcorn. Dreams about the future. Ignores the clock. Sings off key. Has a superpower. Shoots the paper bad guys. Needs some eyeliner. Goes to bed at dawn. Can't resist good smut. Quotes movie lines. Eats whipped yogurt. Lets the story tell itself. Maintains a rich fantasy life. Knows all the mysteries of the gods and of the universe.

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