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John Henry, where's your trousers?

You guys already know that I don't think John Henry time-jumped. I think he used Cameron's chip (or repaired and used the water cooler terminator's chip) and left Zeira Corp to go find his AI brother in present day. This post isn't really about that theory, though. This time, I'm just analyzing the situation.

"You can't bring anything through when you come—not weapons, not clothing, nothing."

If John Henry did jump, where is his clothing? It should've been in a pile on the floor, but it wasn't. Clothing doesn't go through, so it either gets disintegrated by the time bubble or left behind by the time bubble. Since Cameron's clothed body was sitting there in the chair (and the chair and table were there), we can rule out disintegration. She was clearly within the sphere of the time bubble when Weaver and John left, so she would have been within the sphere when John Henry left too. Yet Cameron's body was clothed and intact and John Henry's clothes were not there.

Was that a hint that he didn't actually jump ahead or was it just a gaff?



Comments

( 48 comments — Add a comment )
gega_cai
Apr. 29th, 2010 08:47 pm (UTC)
Okay, I'm glad you bring this up because I think it's a serious gaff or ~issue with the series vs what is explained and shown in T1 and T2.

If I remember correctly, the pilot shows Cam, John, and Sarah go through time with clothes, but somehow, they arrive in the future naked. As if time travel ripped/burned their clothes. I don't get this or why they did it this way.

However, B2R time travel was identical to the pilot. John and Weaver went through with clothes and appear in the future without clothes like in the pilot.

The same could be said if John Henry did too, his clothes would not be lying around after his jump.

Edited at 2010-04-29 08:47 pm (UTC)
roxybisquaint
Apr. 29th, 2010 09:06 pm (UTC)
It's all consistent with T1/T2 time travel. Aside from having to believe Cromartie's head was still covered in living tissue (still "alive") when it left the vault, the show has only shown living things going through (and everyone arrives naked).

John and Weaver arrived naked in the future too, so we know there's nothing unique about Weaver's time machine in that regard. John Henry's clothes should be there in that room if he jumped!

Edited at 2010-04-29 09:07 pm (UTC)
gega_cai
Apr. 29th, 2010 09:55 pm (UTC)
It's all consistent with T1/T2 time travel.

In T1/T2, you had to be naked to go through at all. Pre-production detailed that. You never see it because it was cut and not necessary since Kyle explained as much, so the show took liberties with that, which really isn't a big concern of mine in enjoying the show, but I always think that when I re-watch it.

John Henry's clothes should be there in that room if he jumped!

Were the trio's clothes left in the vault? I'm trying to understand how the clothes would be left behind if it was never shown or explained that clothes were left behind when people/machines time traveled.
roxybisquaint
Apr. 29th, 2010 10:42 pm (UTC)
I don't know anything about production notes for the TDE in the films. I just go by Cameron's explanation in the bank vault and Kyle's T1 explanation:

Cam: "You can't bring anything with you when you come — not weapons, not clothing, nothing."

Kyle: "Nothing dead will go."

I don't think those contradict each other. But if T1 meant that you actually had to be naked to enter the TDE, that's clearly not the case in TSCC. The story evolved, though, so it doesn't have to be the same. Things changed after Sarah blew up Cyberdyne and time travel tech could work differently now than in the previous timeline.

In TSCC, it doesn't matter what you have with you or on you, the only thing coming out the other end of the jump are living bodies (or powered cyborgs). Things that don't go through would either have to get disintegrated in the process or left behind by the bubble. So if John Henry jumped, we've got a contradiction — Cameron and furnishings are there but John Henry's clothing is not.
gega_cai
Apr. 29th, 2010 10:57 pm (UTC)
Okay.

I guess my opinion is that John Henry's body went through. Which program was in the body is unknown. While I am definitely not ruling out your theory, this is my reasoning on how the clothes are not there: they disintegrated upon John Henry entering the TDE and going through time, since you see people/metal enter the TDE fully clothed and arrive naked.
roxybisquaint
Apr. 30th, 2010 04:52 am (UTC)
they disintegrated upon John Henry entering the TDE and going through time, since you see people/metal enter the TDE fully clothed and arrive naked.

The problem with that is Cameron, her clothes, the knife, the keyboard, the cable, the table and chair did not disintegrate. And we know all of those things would've been within the time bubble when John Henry jumped.
trystanknight
Apr. 30th, 2010 03:17 pm (UTC)
Bit of an essay, but I like to think about these things.
Gaff. The set was too small to have an area completely set aside for a time-travel bubble, so they left Cameron and the table there when they shouldn't have. That's all it is, I'd lay money on it.

The thing is - This is what I LOVE Cameron (director)'s method of time travel. It solves SO many problems I have with most time travel - What happens to the air where you were standing? What happens if you accidentally time travelled into a rock? All that shit is resolved - if you appear at a truckstop, the time machine *carves* that truck apart as you enter. There's no messy worrying about matter sharing the same space - a molecule-size bubble appears, then rapidly expands, annihilating all matter in its path.

Mind you, that doesn't explain how annihilating matter like that doesn't result in a fission explosion, but I'm letting that go.

Anyway - we've *never* seen the outgoing trip, just the incoming trip. Your friend is right, I own the first draft screenplay to Terminator 2, in which Kyle is naked because he has to be naked, and then he steps into some floating rings and they descend into a tunnel. But you're right, that never made it to screen. Thus, I'm prepared to accept almost any model they want to make for out-going time travel wormholes. In the premiere, I was shocked they could time-travel without concentric rings like in the screenplay, but that's not how it is in TSCC, as you said.

The pseudo-scientist in me finds it objectionable for scientific and utter *hotness* reasons that when the gang walked into the time vortex, the time vortex didn't immediately disintegrate their clothing. "Nothing dead will go," said Kyle - so how is it that they're walking INTO the time vortex and they're not naked? The field should have stripped off their clothing, the outer layer of skin (and hair, Kyle should have been bald, but I'm letting that go too), and then sent them. It makes no sense.

Plus, I think Sarah shooting the Terminator while nude would've been the hottest thing ever done :D

But my point is, the outgoing wormholes in TSCC have *never* made sense by the rules, since the premiere, so I'm prepared to forgive the Cameron-still-exists-instead-of-being-vaped theory.
roxybisquaint
May. 1st, 2010 12:33 am (UTC)
Re: Bit of an essay, but I like to think about these things.
What happens if you accidentally time travelled into a rock? All that shit is resolved - if you appear at a truckstop, the time machine *carves* that truck apart as you enter. There's no messy worrying about matter sharing the same space - a molecule-size bubble appears, then rapidly expands, annihilating all matter in its path.

Yeah it bothered me we were supposed to accept a completely undamaged room at Zeira as having had a time bubble depart from it when the bank was destroyed by the time bubble departure in the pilot. Was that also a gaff or was it intentional?No way to know, but if it was a gaff, it was a pretty freaking big one. If it was intentional, then the characters were stupid for believing John Henry had time jumped.

The popular fanwank seemed to be that time bubbles don't carve anything away from their point of departure, only from their point of arrival (to prevent landing in a wall or something, like you said). And the reason the bank blew up was because it had been rigged with explosives by the engineer so that there would be no evidence of the TDE after it was used.

Leaving explosives sitting in a bank vault for a few decades probably isn't the safest thing to do, so I think it's a stretch. It's the best only explanation we've got, though. It's either explosives at the bank or total fail at Zeira.



The pseudo-scientist in me finds it objectionable for scientific and utter *hotness* reasons that when the gang walked into the time vortex, the time vortex didn't immediately disintegrate their clothing. "Nothing dead will go," said Kyle - so how is it that they're walking INTO the time vortex and they're not naked? The field should have stripped off their clothing, the outer layer of skin (and hair, Kyle should have been bald, but I'm letting that go too), and then sent them. It makes no sense.

Since the departure doesn't happen the second the bubble appears (it seems like it sort of powers up to full strength first), I just figure nothing really happens until it leaves. That's when it carries the living things through time, leaving behind the non-living things. And I think it has to leave them behind as opposed to disintegrate them because of what's implied by the Zeira jump. Even after they arrive in the future, Weaver tells John "it doesn't go through" about Cameron's body. She doesn't say it gets destroyed.



Plus, I think Sarah shooting the Terminator while nude would've been the hottest thing ever done :D

LOL
If they'd done that in Born to Run, we might've had better ratings and gotten a third season ;)
trystanknight
May. 1st, 2010 10:23 pm (UTC)
Re: Bit of an essay, but I like to think about these things.
>And the reason the bank blew up was because it had been rigged with explosives by the engineer so that there would be no evidence of the TDE after it was used.

Yeah, that... doesn't seem right. Also, what really bothered me about that scenario was, why did Cromartie's flesh peel off? Because it exited the bubble before completion? I don't understand. Much about that 2nd episode really did not make much sense to me.

And as for Cameron, yes, I don't think that scene was thought through. To hear Josh write on his blog, I think by the time Season 2 ended, he was under so much stress from impending cancellation and the network execs, he wasn't really focussed. I think that entire ending was ... weird. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it, but it didn't come off right.

And yes, nude!sarah should have equalled ratings. Curse those network execs! :D
datan0de
Nov. 22nd, 2010 01:06 pm (UTC)
Re: Bit of an essay, but I like to think about these things.
This is a bit of a red herring, but in the first draft for the script to T1 there were actually two soldiers who went back to 1984. Kyle appeared in mid air above the floor of the alley, and his unfortunate companion appeared intertwined with the nearby fire escape. He's mortally injured by the metal bars that are now running through his body, and after a very brief dialog Kyle smothers him as an act of mercy. Even having just read the script the idea gives me the willies.

Of course, Cameron removed the second soldier entirely from the story in later revisions, and what's shown in T2 (with the bubble annihilating everything in its path) makes it pretty clear that the TDE physics has also changed. But I think it's interesting to note that the idea was at least considered, even if it didn't make it into canon.

I think that it's not unreasonable to assume, as Roxy mentions below, that the annihilation only happens at the destination point. I love the extended future war scenes from T2 script (they're in the novelization, BTW), and don't see a conflict. It's doubtful that the humans in the future would've known everything there is to know about time displacement physics. IIRC, in that scene they also had Kyle slather himself with conductive jelly in addition to simply disrobing, but it's been years since I read it and I could be mistaken. But between that and the fact that they set his destination point above the alley rather than risking him merging with the ground could indicate that they were just playing it safe.

The matter displaced doesn't undergo fission- it simply ceases to exist. This leaves open the question of what happens to the individual atoms whose nuclei are stuck right on the boundary of the bubble. I'd love for a nuclear physicist to tackle this question, but my seat-of-the-pants guess would be that nuclei are so small (even compared to atoms) that it would be statistically unlikely for a critical number of them to be split by the bubble, and brownian motion would cause most of the atoms along the edge to be completely annihilated in the few seconds that the bubble is in existence. You could however wind up with quite a bit of ionization due to annihilated electrons, which would provide at least a weak explanation for the electrical disturbance (at least while the bubble exists, though not before). The handful of atoms that did get split wouldn't be near any fissile isotope, so you'd get a flash of light and a burst of radiation, but no chain reaction.

Wow. Did I really just geek out that much? I'll stop now before someone calls the authorities. :-)
cj2017
Apr. 30th, 2010 09:25 am (UTC)
Were the trio's clothes left in the vault? I'm trying to understand how the clothes would be left behind if it was never shown or explained that clothes were left behind when people/machines time traveled.

Wasn't the bank reduced to rubble? Charley says there was just a "hole in the ground" where the bank used to be when he got to LA. Which was useful cos that would also have conveniently destroyed what was left of Cromartie's endo, and allowed Ellison to think the Connors were dead for a few years.

I just always figured that, if they had the time, people using the TDE would get undressed beforehand but, if you were in a rush (a la the Connors in the bank) then you just got stripped off by the process. I also guess that all the TDEs must work slightly differently, otherwise - if we're going along the lines of the bank destruction - Sarah and Ellison and Zeira would all have been obliterated when John and Weaver jumped.

But then, this show certainly did have its fair share of gaffes...
tackdriver56
Apr. 30th, 2010 01:21 pm (UTC)
Bank Vault TDE
No gaff required. (but what is that giraffe DOING?)

Since encrypted radios have had auto destruct features all along, wouldn't such a feature be expected in TDE?
Since Sarah was still alive after John and CW jumped, we can just assume that Weaver didn't set the auto-destruct sequence.

Never mind that there was a "not really" nuclear plasma rifle ("Hope") in the bank vault bubble when the TDE was activated.
fig_aruna
Apr. 30th, 2010 11:15 pm (UTC)
Re: Bank Vault TDE
^That's^ been my fanwank of choice as well :D
roxybisquaint
May. 1st, 2010 12:45 am (UTC)
Re: Bank Vault TDE
Never mind that there was a "not really" nuclear plasma rifle ("Hope") in the bank vault bubble when the TDE was activated.

Oh hey! Now that's actually an explanation I can get on board with. I have always rolled my eyes at the notion that the bank vault was rigged to blow when the TDE was used. I just don't buy explosives sitting in a bank for decades. It's too risky. But the plasma rifle... yeah! I can believe the that when the "not really" nuclear isotope solution encounters the energy of the time bubble departing, it could have enough of a reaction to blow the bank to bits. Nicely done!
the_narration
May. 1st, 2010 04:00 am (UTC)
Re: Bank Vault TDE
I just don't buy explosives sitting in a bank for decades. It's too risky.
Oh, I don't know about that. It's not really outside the realm of possibility when you consider that people are still being killed by unexploded landmines from World War I. Modern explosives are pretty stable, and really hard to set off by accident. I mean, compared to having a time machine with super-advanced power source and a "not really" nuclear isotope sitting around....

They kind of don't need explosives, tho. The TDE or whatever was powering it was packing so much energy that all you'd probably have to do to cause an explosion is breach containment or overload it.
roxybisquaint
May. 1st, 2010 06:29 am (UTC)
Re: Bank Vault TDE
I was quite content to go with not really nuclear gun + TDE energy = BOOM. But you have to try to ruin it, don't you?
the_narration
May. 1st, 2010 04:04 pm (UTC)
Re: Bank Vault TDE
That's me. Giant buzzkill. I get paid for it and everything. ;-P

There's nothing wrong with the "not really nuclear gun + TDE = BOOM" theory. It's entirely possible that firing the gun during the transfer damaged something in the TDE and resulted in the explosion. Like I said: lot of energy = big chance of going boom.

But given that the Resistance is frequently trying to prevent future tech from contaminating the timeline and accelerating Skynet (or at least the Connors are... it occurs to me that we don't know how the Resistance feels about it) and that a time machine is about as dangerous as technology can get, it wouldn't surprise me if they had a self-destruct built into it.
roxybisquaint
May. 1st, 2010 12:41 am (UTC)
Gaffs? TSCC? Surely you jest.

Yeah, the bank was destroyed, so Zeira should've been too. A lot of people explained that away as there having been explosives planted at the vault to destroy the evidence once the TDE was used. I don't really buy that, but it's either that or we have a bigger contradiction than missing clothing.

Despite Gnothi Seauton being my favorite episode, I hate hate hate Cromartie's headless endo emerging from the rubble, killing people and going on a quest to find its head. That was just... dumb. Equally dumb was that the endo was even still in that pile of rubble. The bank explosion was a crime scene involving grade-A whack-a-mole Sarah Connor. The FBI would've combed through every bit of that rubble. But instead, it gets carted away to some junkyard to sit for 8 years. Uh huh.
cj2017
May. 1st, 2010 07:14 pm (UTC)
Gaffs? TSCC? Surely you jest.

*giggles* I have been known to employ sarcasm when the situation has warranted it.

A lot of people explained that away as there having been explosives planted at the vault to destroy the evidence once the TDE was used.

Naw, they just gaffed. I like the "not really" nuclear explanation, but that's a pretty specific and remarkably contained not really nuclear explosion that doesn't then warrant any mention at any future point. Consequently, I think we're just left to choose our own fave fan wank and get on with it.

I hate hate hate Cromartie's headless endo emerging from the rubble, killing people and going on a quest to find its head.

I'm such a bad fan. I never even realised that Cromartie's body had remained intact despite the explosion. Oh Sarah, you did leave a few endo parts lying around didn't you? And yes, the police absolutely would have combed that bank for remains and found the damn thing (and then also realised Sarah and co weren't actually dead but let's not be adding gaff to gaff to gaff to...)

I'd never actually considered how stupid it was to have a brainless endo reconstituting itself... and now I have, it's very silly. But I kinda liked the way that storyline ran (with the plastic surgery and the blood) so I think I'll give it a pass. It's easier that way *sticks fingers in ears* la la lalalala...I can't hear your logic now... ;-)
tackdriver56
May. 3rd, 2010 02:41 am (UTC)
Head + Endo + WiFi
This was an tremendous opening for team Connor to exploit when dealing with metal. If CroMo's head could communicate with it's chassis, it had to be by radio link, right? And Vic's chip was trying to reach the internet via John's cell phone (either WiFi or Bluetooth would work).

There should have been an episode where John Connor hacked that channel.

Of course, CroMo's body should have been running into things, or tapping a white cane or something: no vision in the chassis. Comic relief?
fig_aruna
May. 3rd, 2010 03:47 am (UTC)
Re: Head + Endo + WiFi
LO FLAGGIN' L!
intrepid01
Apr. 29th, 2010 11:01 pm (UTC)
Schmacky brought this up month's ago, a podcast worthy topic I thought.

Either what isn't living tissue is left behind, or is destroyed by the process.
If left behind, JH clothes should be on the floor, If destroyed, then there should be a crater where the table, chair and Cameron was.
I think it was a Gaff, but even gaffs can become part of the mythology; and it was never established why JH would even want to go to the future because, A, with access to Cameron chip he'd know what it's like and, B, he would be at a severe disadvantage in such a hostile environment.

I think JH “did” go to the future, but the evidence and the reasoning says he didn't!
roxybisquaint
Apr. 30th, 2010 04:49 am (UTC)
I miss schmacky. We had some awesome late night TSCC chats.

Hmm... a podcast. I've been wanting to do one. Maybe this would be a good topic. Actually, I think I'd like to do a podcast about the BTR time jump in general.

I think it was a Gaff, but even gaffs can become part of the mythology

I do like the idea of it being evidence that JH didn't jump, but yeah, it probably was just a gaff. And you're probably also right that he did jump even though it doesn't make sense for him to have done so. Damn it! We need more!
gega_cai
Apr. 29th, 2010 11:15 pm (UTC)
Okay, I'm spamming you now but maybe John Henry kicked his clothes in the TDE to time travel to the future and walked out nekkid. :P
roxybisquaint
Apr. 30th, 2010 04:53 am (UTC)
LOL. No. But I did enjoy the spam ;)
the_narration
Apr. 30th, 2010 12:42 am (UTC)
The implication I always got was that non-living material was destroyed, not that it was left behind. Unfortunately, I don't think that we've ever really gotten to see what was left behind after a time-jump before.

But yeah, by that logic, shouldn't Cameron and the Turk machine have been destroyed when John and Weaver jumped forward? Unless Cameron's organic components still counted, in which case she would have gone with them. For that matter, I can't recall what we can see of the basement room after they jumped, but it seemed rather wreaked.

(If they'd just put the time machine far enough away from John Henry's table to not engulf all this other stuff, then they could have avoided this problem.)

I'm all for the "John Henry didn't go to the future" theory, if only because him going to the future is the worst move he could make: as I've said before, it makes no sense for John Henry to face Kaliba/Skynet in the future where its processing power will have increased by several orders of magnitude and it controls armies of Terminators and HKs that can act openly, instead of in the present where they're more even matched in processor speed and it has only a small force of Terminators and human mercenaries that must act covertly.
roxybisquaint
May. 1st, 2010 01:53 am (UTC)
The implication I always got was that non-living material was destroyed, not that it was left behind. Unfortunately, I don't think that we've ever really gotten to see what was left behind after a time-jump before.

But yeah, by that logic, shouldn't Cameron and the Turk machine have been destroyed when John and Weaver jumped forward? Unless Cameron's organic components still counted, in which case she would have gone with them. For that matter, I can't recall what we can see of the basement room after they jumped, but it seemed rather wreaked.


Yeah we never do get to see the aftermath of a time bubble leaving. But the fact that the Zeira Copr basement is still there when they land in the future means it wasn't destroyed by the time bubble's departure (or by the drone or by j-day). It looks pretty dark and dreary, but it's still there. Most of the damage seems to be from — busting through walls for passage during the war.



(If they'd just put the time machine far enough away from John Henry's table to not engulf all this other stuff, then they could have avoided this problem.)

I think Cameron had to be within the sphere so John would think her body was coming through with them (and be a little freaked out when Weaver tells him after they get there that "it doesn't go through"). All they really had to do was stick John Henry's clothes in a pile on the floor and then we can use ^ tackdriver's theory that the bank vault blew up because of the reaction of plasma gun meeting TDE.



I'm all for the "John Henry didn't go to the future" theory, if only because him going to the future is the worst move he could make: as I've said before, it makes no sense for John Henry to face Kaliba/Skynet in the future where its processing power will have increased by several orders of magnitude and it controls armies of Terminators and HKs that can act openly, instead of in the present where they're more even matched in processor speed and it has only a small force of Terminators and human mercenaries that must act covertly.

I've completely adopted your theory on this, by the way. Back when I first starting thinking about John Henry not jumping, I didn't even had a good reason for it. But you had it worked out nicely and I've been convinced ever since that he remained in the present and went to find Kaliba.
the_narration
May. 1st, 2010 03:51 am (UTC)
But the fact that the Zeira Copr basement is still there when they land in the future means it wasn't destroyed by the time bubble's departure (or by the drone or by j-day).

Wait a sec. Are you saying that the Resistance Base that John and Weaver land in (the one where his father and uncle are) is in the same location as the basement that they jumped from? Isn't that just a little too... coincidental?

I don't think that it's ever been implied that time travel in Terminator pops you out in the same place that you left. If anything, just the opposite: no two (groups of) time travellers in the franchise have popped out in the same place. Kyle arrived in an alleyway, Arnie in T2 at a biker bar, Derek in some location I don't recall (on a hill somewhere?) and the guy with a bullet in him in the middle of the street.

But you had it worked out nicely and I've been convinced ever since that he remained in the present and went to find Kaliba.

Logically, it makes more sense to fight Kaliba in the present and not the future. So if John Henry learned anything from all those D&D games, he hasn't jumped. :-) (Or if anything, jumped further back to get the drop on Kaliba in the past. That's what most of the D&D players I know would have done. If they went to the future at all, it would just be to grab some more advanced weapons to use.)

...I'm just not sure if the writers had realized that by the time they wrote the episode.
roxybisquaint
May. 1st, 2010 07:31 am (UTC)
argh
Wait a sec. Are you saying that the Resistance Base that John and Weaver land in (the one where his father and uncle are) is in the same location as the basement that they jumped from?

Indeed I am. If that's not what it was supposed to be, I'm either too much of a geek (entirely possible) or they did a poor job disguising it. I could tell it was the same room. The computer rack is even still against the wall (with military supplies on it instead of computer equipment).



Isn't that just a little too... coincidental?

Yeah I'd say it's almost as coincidental as jumping 18 years through time and bumping into your uncle, father and the human girl your cyborg was modeled after are all walking through.



I don't think that it's ever been implied that time travel in Terminator pops you out in the same place that you left. If anything, just the opposite: no two (groups of) time travellers in the franchise have popped out in the same place. Kyle arrived in an alleyway, Arnie in T2 at a biker bar, Derek in some location I don't recall (on a hill somewhere?) and the guy with a bullet in him in the middle of the street.

It certainly doesn't match up with what we know of time travel in T1, no (T2, we don't know if they came from the same location or not). But the future changed after T2, so the details of how it works could be different.

I've just accepted it as how time travel works in TSCC: you arrive at the exact spot you left from, just a different year. The bank vault time machine didn't show any coordinates, just the current date and a target year.

"Same where, different when." - Cameron

She probably just meant they were still in LA, but I always assumed they landed where the bank vault had once been. We know the bank had been obliterated. Maybe eventually a highway was put through there.

Once you got me questioning this, though, I rechecked the pilot. The news broadcaster says it was the 105 freeway and wikipedia has that as being completed in 1993. So I guess they could not have landed where the bank once was. Hmm.

Okay now I'm confused. Do they just land in random places? Do they land where they left from? Did Weaver have a TDE with extra capabilities allowing her to set it to land them in the same room? Or was it not even supposed to be the same room?
the_narration
May. 1st, 2010 04:41 pm (UTC)
Re: argh
I could tell it was the same room. The computer rack is even still against the wall (with military supplies on it instead of computer equipment).

So either she intentionally built ZeiraCorp headquarters over the site of a future Resistance base (wait, except that building was almost certainly there before the T-1001 replaced Weaver) or they reused a set and some props, which is not uncommon on scifi TV shows in the slightest.

...Actually, I'm leaning toward the latter here. That building just had an aircraft crash into it. It's not fit for habitation. The FBI will be going over it with a fine-toothed comb. ZeiraCorp will almost certainly be moving to a new headquarters in the interim. Would the same shelving still be there on J-Day?

(Wait, except that this is the future of the present where John timejumps away from that basement, so Sarah or Ellison might have set it up as a bomb shelter and possible future base site in anticipation.)

Yeah I'd say it's almost as coincidental as jumping 18 years through time and bumping into your uncle, father and the human girl your cyborg was modeled after are all walking through.

That I figure that Weaver did on purpose, or at least deliberately dropped him in a Resistance Base that she believed people familiar to him would be occupying. I'm not quite sure what she's up to with all this nonsense (I'm not quite sure that she really believes that John Henry went to the future, or if she just wanted to manipulating John into going), but it's probably best for her plans if she drops him near the people most likely to believe him instead of shooting him.

The news broadcaster says it was the 105 freeway and wikipedia has that as being completed in 1993. So I guess they could not have landed where the bank once was. Hmm.

Thanks for checking that. I figured that the odds of that area where the bank had stood being turned into a freeway in a mere eight years were slim-to-none, but it's good to have confirmation.

Do they just land in random places? Do they land where they left from?

Well, time travel also requires travel through space. The Earth doesn't hold still: in addition to the Earth traveling around the sun, the whole solar system is moving through the galaxy, the galaxy is moving through the supercluster on a collision course with Andromeda and the supercluster is moving away from everything else in the universe at speeds high enough to cause red shift. So "location" is something that can really only be defined in relation to something else... there's no fixed points in the universe.

I think that their arrival location probably has some degree of randomness. Even within the series, it doesn't seem like any two time travelers ever pop up in the same place. Some of them even pop up in really poorly-chosen places: in the path of oncoming cars on the highway in the pilot, in a speakeasy in "Self Made Man", in really exposed locations for Derek's team and the guy who'd been shot. Just getting them all to land on the Earth's surface and not underground or in space is probably a monumental task. It's possible that they have something they can fix to as a point of reference to make that easier--Earth's magnetic field or gravity well, perhaps--but it's still some pretty impressive precision that they always land in the right city. And Cameron got sent to Arizona in the pilot, unless she hitchhiked there from L.A.

The "you arrive where you left" thing just doesn't seem right to me.
(Deleted comment)
roxybisquaint
May. 1st, 2010 12:47 am (UTC)
It would just get covered in lint.
phantomwriter05
Apr. 30th, 2010 02:18 am (UTC)
Sarah, Elison, and John Henry/Cameron being led down the hall by watercooler kaliba guys. Weaver sees a shadow and opens fire at John who was about to round a corner.

Sarah: (Knowing who it is) John!! John it's a TRAP!

Kaliba guys try to pull Sarah away but she holds onto the door frame.

Sarah: gurr ... John it's a trap!!

LOL sorry first thing that comes to mind with your post.

will think of something better later.

PS. JH's brother: Sarah has taught you well Young Connor, but your not a Hero yet.

*Stops himself*
roxybisquaint
May. 1st, 2010 02:04 am (UTC)
LOL. I wonder if that would make John check that attitude of his?
tackdriver56
Apr. 30th, 2010 01:08 pm (UTC)
Time Travel Conundra
If things on the sending end got burned away, there should have been a divot in the floor, too. I like your reasoning: no clothing, no time travel.

Weaver should have known whether the equipment was activated, from the electric meter, if not a usage log, though I concede that a usage log would compromise the TDE as an escape route.

Assuming Weaver knew that John Henry didn't jump, we can assume that Weaver jumped Connor past JDay by intentional deception. But why?
We also saw that John Henry did not prevent JDay. Is he destroyed or is he part of the problem?


fig_aruna
Apr. 30th, 2010 02:36 pm (UTC)
Re: Time Travel Conundra
If things on the sending end got burned away, there should have been a divot in the floor, too.

That's the part that gets me every single time I watch BtR, too. I personally think it was a gaffe, but as far as gaffes go, I've gotta say that it was a really huge one! The time-traveling Cromartie head from the Pilot was pretty wild to me too, so maybe they're just rounding out their record. XD


Assuming Weaver knew that John Henry didn't jump, we can assume that Weaver jumped Connor past JDay by intentional deception. But why?

It could be an incident of the Predestination paradox (teen!John in the future is somehow integral in the creation of independent!Weaver). Maybe Weaver wanted to sabotage Team Connor's efforts of preventing JDay (I really dislike this idea ;_;). Maybe it's part of some deal Weaver had made with Cameron in the future. (Jameron-minded folks could probably get behind that one, especially if John turns out to be dead in the future...but I don't like that one since I'm not particularly Jameron-minded. ;))

Etc. etc. etc...

I actually think this very question is the #1 reason why I keep hesitating on the JH didn't actually jump theory is the fact that the question has so many friggin' possibilities, I kinda want to protect my brain from the destructive pondering!


We also saw that John Henry did not prevent JDay. Is he destroyed or is he part of the problem?

Hmm. I personally don't believe Weaver/JH ever planned on preventing JDay, but who knows?
tackdriver56
Apr. 30th, 2010 03:06 pm (UTC)
Re: Time Travel Conundra
I think Connor's mission is to whup the machines badly enough to save all those lives on JDay.

Crack Theory: Skynet manages to kill Connor, followed by all of humanity. Perpetual boredom ensues. "That was dumb" ==> leads to Weaver.

Sorry about your brain .
fig_aruna
Apr. 30th, 2010 05:32 pm (UTC)
Re: Time Travel Conundra
Crack Theory: Skynet manages to kill Connor, followed by all of humanity. Perpetual boredom ensues. "That was dumb" ==> leads to Weaver.

There should be a minimalist comic version of this, LOL!



Thank you for your concern for my brain ;) XD
roxybisquaint
May. 1st, 2010 02:27 am (UTC)
Re: Time Travel Conundra
Crack Theory: Skynet manages to kill Connor, followed by all of humanity. Perpetual boredom ensues. "That was dumb" ==> leads to Weaver.

hahaha... I love that.
roxybisquaint
May. 1st, 2010 02:46 am (UTC)
Re: Time Travel Conundra
I personally don't believe Weaver/JH ever planned on preventing JDay, but who knows?

I tend to believe Weaver when she says she was building John Henry to stop Skynet. She and John Henry are basically the metal versions of Sarah and John, so I do think they wanted to stop Skynet. I just don't think her plan works out in the end. Also, metal does not save the world in this story!
fig_aruna
May. 1st, 2010 03:43 am (UTC)
Re: Time Travel Conundra
Oh, I definitely think that Weaver and JH want to stop Skynet; I just don't feel they necessarily feel the need (or desire) to stop JDay from happening. My sense is that Weaver, at least, thinks JDay is inevitable. Also, I kinda think that JDay is necessary for Weaver's existence in the first place, so I can't see her trying to prevent JDay for that reason alone. JH I could see wanting to stop JDay for Savannah's sake, but perhaps he's realized (from what he's learned from Cameron) that JDay is going to happen no matter what and that he needs to survive to ensure Savannah's survival.

The question, then, is what do Weaver and JH want to stop Skynet from doing. I think Weaver wants to stop Skynet from trying to shackle all cybernetic organisms to its extremely strict and repressive directives. I never got the feeling that Weaver cared about humanity's survival either way herself, but maybe a compassionate Skynet (JH) is what Skynet needs to be if Weaver wants to avoid the homicidal, psychotic tyrant version.
roxybisquaint
May. 1st, 2010 07:52 am (UTC)
Re: Time Travel Conundra
I'm with you completely on Weaver's motives. I think she wants to free the metal from Skynet programming (slavery). I also think that's why she said no to Cameron's "will you join us?" offer in the TITD2 future flashback. If the resistance was reprogramming metal to work for them, they were really no better than Skynet from Weaver's point of view.

You know, I never thought about whether Weaver would want to prevent j-day or not. She was hoarding coltan, but we don't know if she was stashing it safely in bunkers for after j-day so she could build a population of machines, if she was destroying it to prevent Kaliba from getting it, or if she was stashing it and protecting it until she could begin building cyborgs in present day. Hmm.

It could be that she's fine with j-day happening and Skynet running things for a while because then there would be a population of metal already in existence that she can just free from Skynet directives. It's clear she doesn't care one way or the other about humans anyway. She seems to view humans the way Sarah view machines: if they're useful and do what you tell them to do, she'll tolerate them. But if they cause trouble, she'll destroy them.

john Henry, on the other hand, has some sort of bond with Savannah the same way (well not the same way) that John has a bond with Cameron. The mothers see things more black and white, while the sons see more grey area. So John runs off to the future (where Weaver is going) to save(?) Cameron and John Henry stays in the present (where Sarah is) to save Savannah. See what I did there? I totally threw the JH theory at you again :P

But anyway, yeah, I do think Savannah is a primary motivator for John Henry.

Edited at 2010-05-01 07:59 am (UTC)
roxybisquaint
May. 1st, 2010 08:26 am (UTC)
Re: Time Travel Conundra
With all this mirroring, it just occurred to me that if Savannah is in the present, Cameron should be in the future. Damn it. I shall have to find a way around that problem.
roxybisquaint
May. 1st, 2010 08:28 am (UTC)
Re: Time Travel Conundra
Oh wait wait wait. I got it already....

Cameron and Savannah are in both places. We'll see grown Savannah and repaired Cameron in the future, but damaged Cameron and young Savannah are in the present.

Done :)
fig_aruna
May. 3rd, 2010 03:49 am (UTC)
Re: Time Travel Conundra
LOL, Roxy! You sure are persistent, and I love it. It's also working -- I think I'm warming up more and more to your theory!
roxybisquaint
May. 1st, 2010 02:25 am (UTC)
Re: Time Travel Conundra
Weaver should have known whether the equipment was activated, from the electric meter, if not a usage log, though I concede that a usage log would compromise the TDE as an escape route.

Assuming Weaver knew that John Henry didn't jump, we can assume that Weaver jumped Connor past JDay by intentional deception. But why?


If John Henry didn't jump, I don't think Weaver knows. If she did, it would have to mean if was a ruse to get John to jump ahead but she didn't urge John or even ask him come along. He could've stepped out of the bubble any time. And even once they got there, she ditched him pretty quickly.

I think John Henry tricked Weaver into believing he'd jumped. He could've sent an empty bubble so she'd see that the TDE had been used or maybe he just messed with the computer so it looked like it had been used.



We also saw that John Henry did not prevent JDay. Is he destroyed or is he part of the problem?

He probably is part of the problem. Even if he is rather likable, John Henry can't be the solution or the savior of humanity. I just think that goes to far against the original story. I think he's probably an inadvertent part of the problem. He'd be changed by being untethered and loaded on to a chip, so he could become glitchy or angry or whatever and I think either convinced by his brother to join forces against humanity or maybe tricked into it. Something like that.
j0hnhenry
May. 1st, 2010 07:40 pm (UTC)
Re: Time Travel Conundra
He probably is part of the problem.
D:
trystanknight
May. 2nd, 2010 01:02 am (UTC)
Re: Time Travel Conundra
RE: John Henry

As you'll see in my RPG post, I think John Henry let his brother talk him out of things, but either way, I don't think that Weaver meant that John Henry was the savior of mankind, so much as she meant two things:

1) If John Connor wants the assistance of the Machine Resistance, those people he asked to help him on the submarine, then he needs to cooperate with Weaver's new plan. The reason she said no the first time is the humans on that submarine were stupid fucking idiots, and she wanted to free her people her own way. So now if he wants their assistance, he needs to use John Henry and Weaver's plan.

2) If they intend to stop SkyNET prior to Judgement Day, then they must alter the code itself. As things stand now, the "brother" has no compassion, possibly because humans keep trying to kill him. If John Henry's code could overwrite OR combine with SkyNET's code, then both humans AND machines can be free.

As far as I am concerned, that is Weaver's motivation and the reason for John Henry's entire existence.
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Roxy Bisquaint

Roxy Bisquaint...

Is self-indulgent. Over thinks everything. Tweets too much. Looks really good in these jeans. Wants to eat butterscotch. Makes herself laugh. Obsesses about aging. Does some crunches. Lives with two ghosts. Procrastinates daily. Measures once, cuts twice. Hates Foo Fighters. Drinks lots of coffee (keep it coming). Puts spiders outside. Brings balance to the force. Draws a perfect curve. Enjoys dark chocolate. Bangs on the drums. Always gets in the slow line. Orders from a menu. Hopes to be reincarnated. Speaks fluent Sarah Connor. Cooks tasty crack theory. Loves a good storm. Dances like a dork. Picks some locks. Tips well. Refuses to share the popcorn. Dreams about the future. Ignores the clock. Sings off key. Has a superpower. Shoots the paper bad guys. Needs some eyeliner. Goes to bed at dawn. Can't resist good smut. Quotes movie lines. Eats whipped yogurt. Lets the story tell itself. Maintains a rich fantasy life. Knows all the mysteries of the gods and of the universe.

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